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Old 01-14-2003, 02:21 PM   #46
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JOFO,

Its not that simple. Here is why. Putting out all are evidence could compromise the intelligence sources that allowed us to know such things. It may be that one or more of Saddam's top officials or perhaps someone intimately involved with WMD programs or sites is secretly and successfully providing intelligence.

If the USA puts out what it knows, Saddam will see this as well and will be able to caculate how the USA found such information out. If he can't pinpoint who the spy is, Saddam in the past has killed hundreds or thousands of officers, government officials, and scientist, just to insure that the spy is destroyed. Saddam will have an idea who had access to such secret information and it would not be beneath him to literally kill everyone who knew such information in order to destroy the spy.

If the US recklessly posted all its evidence, Saddam would find out what he needs to know to make his WMD even more hidden than before. He'll also be able to potentially eliminate are sources of information. He will then launch a massive cover up operation after having destroyed our only sources of info, and then present conflicting evidence that throws the USA evidence into dispute. Saddam wins not once, but twice in that situation.
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Old 01-14-2003, 02:29 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
JOFO,

Its not that simple. Here is why. Putting out all are evidence could compromise the intelligence sources that allowed us to know such things. It may be that one or more of Saddam's top officials or perhaps someone intimately involved with WMD programs or sites is secretly and successfully providing intelligence.

If the USA puts out what it knows, Saddam will see this as well and will be able to caculate how the USA found such information out. If he can't pinpoint who the spy is, Saddam in the past has killed hundreds or thousands of officers, government officials, and scientist, just to insure that the spy is destroyed. Saddam will have an idea who had access to such secret information and it would not be beneath him to literally kill everyone who knew such information in order to destroy the spy.

If the US recklessly posted all its evidence, Saddam would find out what he needs to know to make his WMD even more hidden than before. He'll also be able to potentially eliminate are sources of information. He will then launch a massive cover up operation after having destroyed our only sources of info, and then present conflicting evidence that throws the USA evidence into dispute. Saddam wins not once, but twice in that situation.

fair enough, however, if they know for a fact that he's got them, if they tell the world where, how, and why, they can just go ahead with the war and it won't matter if saddam figures out who betrayed him, because his ass will be flying on a flagpole instead of sitting in a 14 karot gold chair.
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Old 01-14-2003, 02:35 PM   #48
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That may infact happen.
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Old 01-15-2003, 07:26 AM   #49
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Well if the weapons are in fact hidden, who's to say they are still wherever US thinks they are now?

I wasn't thinking going publicl with this info, just exchange the info with UN inspectors confidentially. (besides, if war happens anway, there won't be time for Iraq to hunt spies)
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Old 01-15-2003, 11:00 AM   #50
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Well if the weapons are in fact hidden, who's to say they are still wherever US thinks they are now?

I wasn't thinking going publicl with this info, just exchange the info with UN inspectors confidentially. (besides, if war happens anway, there won't be time for Iraq to hunt spies)
I agree.
I was watching some CNN thing last night and 3 guys were like "yes, he's got them and the u.s. knows exactly what and where".
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Old 01-16-2003, 07:13 PM   #51
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The solution

Here is how simple it IS:

The US provides the evidence to the 'world'. No, not to the idiot media outlets or to every nation of the UN, but to the UN Security Council AND to the UN inspection teams. There *should* be no compromising of intelligence sources in that event. That is one of the most bold faced lies the Bush admin has tried yet. Noone on the Security Council is going to leave such a meeting and get on the phone to Iraq ("Hey Saddam, check it out, I just saw a photo of missiles at such and such..better kill all the people working there and move that shit out dude..").

The UN inspection teams, armed with the plethora (and I try not to be too sarcastic here) of evidence that the US intelligence community has amassed including satellite images, etc etc, start showing up unannounced at the precise locations that the US believes to contain WMD, and inspect right away, and forget about the schedule.

Also, the US provides the full and unedited Iraqi declaration to the UN Security Council and allows them to determine what to do with it.

Also, the US provides to the UN a full inventory of all the weapons it has sold to Iraq over, say, the last 25 years and also owns up for why it was supplying weapons to a dictatorship.

Otherwise the whole things a farce and the Bush administration hasn't a drop of credibility.

Problem solved. If the US has the evidence, it will be hours and at most days before these supposed stockpiles of WMD are uncovered and the whole thing is a done deal.

Then they can turn their attention to the guys who are actually pointing their ICBMs across the Pacific as we argue about a nation that can't even defend itself.
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Old 01-16-2003, 09:10 PM   #52
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sounds good to me.
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Old 01-17-2003, 01:17 AM   #53
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Gabrielvox,

In 1991, the USA avoided telling the Soviet Union when the US forces would launch Desert Storm. When we did inform them US intelligence intercepted the Soviets attempting to inform the Iraqi's. This of course did not matter because the initial operation was already in progess and the first bombs fell only minutes later.

The point here is that the Russians and Chinese cannot be completely trusted with such information and it is possible they would leak such information.

As far as the US inspection teams, you seem to forget that Iraq moniters the moves of the tiny UN inspection team and if they were about to find anything, could easily block access to any site until sensitive material had been removed. The old "Cheat and Retreat" strategy the Iraq's were very effective at in the 1990s. Bottom line, unless Iraq decides to come clean, the inspectors without military force have little chance of disarming Iraq. If the inspectors had significant numbers of US forces with them on their inspections then this would be an option that could be successful. So far, the UN inspection team only has 100 unarmed inspectors and two helicopters to search a country nearly the size of Texas.

The problem is that at any point that the USA gives information and the inspectors move in to search for something, they will be blocked. Saddam will kill anyone who might of known that there were WMD weapons there at some point and we will lose are source. Iraq will hide its materials some place else and we would of lost are ability to know where they now are.

Such sensitive sites should only be moved on when the USA can bring in military force to ensure their capture and destruction. Otherwise we simply repeat the same process where Iraq hides their materials through a cheat and retreat process and we lose perhaps are only intelligence sources in Iraq. If war does become necessary, we do not want those intelligence sources to already be compromised. Especially in case Iraq attempts to move the materials outside the country or to a terrorist group, or starts to outfit regular army or republican guard troops with such weapons.

Iraq has yet to explain what has happened to thousands of Chemical shells and other WMD items that they did still have back in 1998. They claimed they destroyed them but have shown no evidence to prove that is indeed the case. Until they give up those weapons or show the evidence of their destruction, that is all the justification the UN, USA and other countries need to move in with military force to finally force Iraq to comply with all their obligations that they signed on to in the ceacefire agreement from 12 years ago.
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Old 01-17-2003, 09:15 AM   #54
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I think I have it figured out....Sting is an iRobot, incapable of any other perspective than that of what they've programmed him to beLIEve.

So when do you get on the plane to Iraq Sting?
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Old 01-17-2003, 09:55 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally posted by gabrielvox
I think I have it figured out....Sting is an iRobot, incapable of any other perspective than that of what they've programmed him to beLIEve.

So when do you get on the plane to Iraq Sting?
Ah yes, good old ad hominem attacks. Are you a Chomsky fan?

How about actually replying to STING's argument?
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Old 01-19-2003, 07:05 AM   #56
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Gabrielvox you do bring up some excellent points in your replies. This though, is the second time you have mentioned STING2 going to Iraq to personally support this war. That is about as valid as STING2 asking you when you are going to enter politics as Bush's opposition to actively back up your views and stop this war from happening. Are you just trying to shit stir here or what?
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Old 01-19-2003, 10:09 AM   #57
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Its a perfectly valid question

The question I have asked is a perfectly valid one and one that I have seen discussed quite rationally on various media outlets by a number of respected senators and commentators.

The problem is that by far the majority of people who write on these types of forums in support of a war on Iraq are not personally volunteering to go over there, and that gets up some other people's noses, like mine.

I'm not responding to any of STINGS arguments because all he is doing is repeating the same old tired mantras over and over again, and it's not worth my time. He lost all respect from me when he posted about being in support of all past US military campaigns, Vietnam included.
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Old 01-19-2003, 12:44 PM   #58
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Gabrielvox,

"I think I have it figured out....Sting is an iRobot, incapable of any other perspective than that of what they've programmed him to beLIEve."

"So when do you get on the plane to Iraq Sting?"

Possibly sometime in the future. Its a bit naive for you or anyone to assume so much about someone you do not know.

I'm sorry you have lost respect for me. I try to respect everyone in the forum even if I disagree with their viewpoint.
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Old 01-19-2003, 01:10 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
I try to respect everyone in the forum even if I disagree with their viewpoint.

The problem with our 'difference' of opinion is that acting on your opinion kills innocent people.

'Sorry' if I can't respect that.

I can agree to disagree though, so I leave it at that.
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Old 01-19-2003, 11:18 PM   #60
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Gabrielvox,

Your course of action can result in the deaths of innocent people as well.
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