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Old 03-12-2005, 05:41 PM   #16
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Originally posted by XHendrix24


He wants to get rid of this mafia-like organization, and you're criticizing him because of something his FATHER did that's remotely concerning the matter? I mean, would you rather Bush just shut his yap about it and let the IRA be? Honestly.
No what he should get criticized for is sitting on the sidelines when he ahd the opp. of a lifetime to make a difference. He did not take a personal interest in NI or Ireland because it was not suitable to him. The Irish are generally not going to vote for him. The Irish generally are much more liberal then Bush, this didnt suit him and that the end of it.

Screw the father, who cares because he had no interest in NI either. GWB had the opp and passed it up, what else can be said on this issue?
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Old 03-12-2005, 06:36 PM   #17
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Originally posted by Jamila
I think the administration who has a guy at the head (Dubya) whose father was the head of the CIA in the 1970s at a time when the CIA was covertly funding coup d'etats of LEGALLY ELECTED governments in South America and allowing these U.S. imposed thugs to kill, maim, torture and imprison tens of thousands of their countrymen

HAS NO BUSINESS TELLING ANYONE OR ORGANIZATION TO STOP USING VIOLENT MEANS (I do not agree personally with violent means of change)!

The U.S. in South America in the 1970s and in southern Africa in the 1980s covertly funded the death and destruction of tens of thousands, possibly hundreds of thousands, people that they funded in support of civil wars in southern Africa and coup d'etats in South America!

Bush needs to look at his own family history first.

Harsh words, I know, but IT IS THE TRUTH.
Let me understand the logic......

Bush (the son) is responsible in your mind for things Bush (the father did)?

Does that mean you also give credit to Bush (the Son) for anything good his father did?

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Old 03-12-2005, 06:53 PM   #18
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Did Bush give say anything about Protestant fringe groups as well? After all, it wasn't anyobdy in IRA that started that fire in the apt. building few years back that roasted 2 little boys alive.

The loony tunes abound on BOTH sides in this issue, and it's always the Catholic groups that get the blame and media abuse (and the pressue from the Taoiseach, thanks for taking a fair and ojective stand on this, for political reasons. You don;t have the guts to address Ian Paisley and his resident lunatic fringe, who are just as bad, and his son as well. Post-colonial guilt and fear in the Republic--it's still there in the minds of the politicans, even if the populace gave it up long ago. Nice, ain't it?)

I'm certainly not sticking up for the IRA--far from it--but one of the reasons that the GFA held up until the past couple of yrs was b/c outside parties put pressure on BOTH sides and let them know they weren't picking favorites. George Mitchell, we need you now!
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Old 03-12-2005, 07:45 PM   #19
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Originally posted by bonoman


No what he should get criticized for is sitting on the sidelines when he ahd the opp. of a lifetime to make a difference. He did not take a personal interest in NI or Ireland because it was not suitable to him. The Irish are generally not going to vote for him. The Irish generally are much more liberal then Bush, this didnt suit him and that the end of it.

Screw the father, who cares because he had no interest in NI either. GWB had the opp and passed it up, what else can be said on this issue?
Why should Bush get criticized for "sitting on the sidelines"? Why should it be up to Bush, or the president of any other democratic nation, to solve Northern Ireland's problems?

"The Irish generally are much more liberal than Bush".

On what basis? This idea that the Irish are liberals is unsubstantiated crap, based on my relatives in the States anyway!
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Old 03-13-2005, 07:22 AM   #20
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He has oinly been critized by myself when he thinks that its a good time to come into the disscussion and contribute NOTHING. If he wanted Sinn Fein to persuade the IRA to disarm then maybe a private converstation. Go to Belfast. Anything other then a press release calling for the IRA to disarm. Does he honestly think that the IRA and republicans are going to have any time for him.

If he doesnt want to get involved, fine. But dont add your two cents whenever it suits him. He's been absent for four years, whats another four years.

The furtherest right party in Ireland wouldnt be as far right as the Democrats. I read a great book titled, Irish in America, all about how the Irish have voted and who they get involved with politically. The Irish have long been leading members of unions and labour organizations. Some of the biggest Irish organizations in the states are run by people within the Kennedy family and have always been firmly supportive of the Democrats. I'll try to look up some stats for you as i have seen them before but it might not be this week, we'll be able to discuss it later.
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Old 03-13-2005, 07:46 AM   #21
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I think there are several problems here.

First, the Bush administration is making the assumption that Sinn Fein controls the IRA. This article had the good sense to not call Sinn Fein the "political wing" of the IRA, but political ally is damn close. The article seems to imply that if Gerry Adams, Martin McGuinness, Gerry Kelly, etc. were to say, "Hey IRA, disband!" that the Army would do so. That's simply not true of the relationship between the two organizations.

Secondly, the IRA as we know it today (the "Provisional" IRA if you will), arose out of a need to protect the Catholic community after civil rights marches had been repeatedly attacked by Unionist mobs. Since then, there has been an enduring fear within the republican movement that if any move to disband or decommission (and such moves have been taken in the past couple years), the Northern Catholic community would be left without protection from Unionist paramilitaries because the RUC (and now PSNI, basically the same thing) and British Army protected Protestants at the expense of Catholics. In addition, disbanding implies surrender, and the republican movement has been very careful throughout the entire peace process to make moves into "constitutional politics" on their own terms, to show that they have not been defeated. See the 31 August 1994 ceasefire as an example. Therefore, a call for the disbanding of the IRA lacks any understanding of the organization or the circumstances under which they operate.

That said, "criminality" by the IRA does indeed project negatively on Sinn Fein because of the perceived sameness of the two organizations. Crazies like Ian Paisely do not even distinguish between the two and merely refer to "IRA/Sinn Fein." And, Sinn Fein does in fact have influence over the organization, but they cannot dictate policy to the IRA. Because SF is the largest nationalist party in the Six Counties, and want to remain so, they will surely pressure the IRA to give up any criminal activity that the organization engages in. But they will not, cannot, tell the IRA to disband.

Oh, and Bush would better serve the situation by encouraging the British to talk to SF, because as history has shown, refusing to talk to republicans just results in more violence and more time without progress than does including SF in talks.

....ok that's it out of me. I'm a nerd.
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Old 03-13-2005, 12:43 PM   #22
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This week, Robert McCarthy's sisters went to a Sinn Fein conference and heard Gerry Adams speak on their brother's death and what the Sinn Fein was going to do in response to it.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4320993.stm


Robert McCartney's sisters received a warm welcome



Sinn Fein's opponents have tried to demonise the party with allegations of criminality, Gerry Adams has said.
Relatives of murdered Belfast man Robert McCartney travelled to Dublin to hear the Sinn Fein leader's party conference speech.

Mr McCartney, 33, was murdered on 30 January after a row in a bar. His family claim republicans were involved in the killing and subsequent cover-up.

Mr Adams said republicanism had no place for criminal activity.

Sinn Fein has suspended seven party members over the case.

Mr McCartney's sisters received a warm reception at the conference, where they listened to Mr Adams' keynote speech.

His sister Catherine said they were encouraged by Mr Adams' speech but their only concern was to see the perpetrators in court.


Those responsible for the brutal killing of Robert McCartney should admit to what they did in a court of law

In his speech, Mr Adams rejected claims that Sinn Fein had a different definition of criminality from others.

"We know what a crime is, both in the moral and legal sense, and our view is the same as the majority of people.

"We know that breaking the law is a crime. But we refuse to criminalise those who break the law in pursuit of legitimate political objectives.

"Are we saying republicans can do no wrong? Of course not.

"We need to be as strong-minded facing up to wrong-doing by republicans as we are in opposing wrong-doing by anyone else, but we refuse to retrospectively criminalise a legitimate century-long struggle for freedom."

In recent days, the IRA has expelled three members over Mr McCartney's murder following an internal investigation and Sinn Fein has suspended seven members suspected of involvement.

These men murdered my brother - everyone knows who they are, so they have to be held accountable

Mr Adams said the killing was dreadful and the alleged involvement of some republicans made it a huge issue for Sinn Fein.

"As president of Sinn Fein or as an individual, I could not campaign for the victims of British or unionist paramilitary thuggery, if I was not as clear and as committed to justice for the McCartney family," he said.

"Those responsible for the brutal killing of Robert McCartney should admit to what they did in a court of law. That is the only decent thing for them to do.


Robert McCartney's sisters listened intently to Mr Adams' speech

"Others with any information should come forward.

"I am not letting this issue go until those who have sullied the republican cause are made to account for their actions."

Speaking afterwards, Mr McCartney's sister Catherine said Mr Adams' speech was encouraging but their priority was to see those responsible brought to justice.

She said that until those responsible for the murder and their accomplices were brought to court, "we will not accept that everything that can be done has been done".

"We don't feel this is an issue which should divide the nationalist, republican or indeed any community in Ireland - this is a social justice issue," she said.

"These men murdered my brother - everyone knows who they are, so they have to be held accountable. The only people who can hold them accountable is the judicial system."
-----------------------------------------------------------------

While I will never say that the loss of Robert McCarthy's life is not important, I do think that people should give Sinn Fein more respect for trying to deal with this issue responsibly.

And I really respect the McCarthy sisters for going to the Sinn Fein meeting and for being open to dialogue on this issue.
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Old 03-13-2005, 12:53 PM   #23
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Great post tennispunk!

Also that article is very encouraging, they need to arrest and sentance these people who so wrongly killed a man for no other reason but to settle an arguement.
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Old 03-13-2005, 06:57 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by tennispunk
Secondly, the IRA as we know it today (the "Provisional" IRA if you will), arose out of a need to protect the Catholic community after civil rights marches had been repeatedly attacked by Unionist mobs.
Yeah, well, the IRA has a new hobby now:

http://www.365gay.com/newscon05/03/031305ulster.htm

Quote:
IRA Turning To Attacks On Gays

(Londonderry, Northern Ireland) Terrorists from the Irish Republican Army are reportedly targeting gays now that they have abandoned their war against the British government.

As the political wing of the IRA concentrates on peaceful talks about the future of Ireland with the government in London, members of the military wing in Northern Ireland have turned into marauding bands - robbing banks and beating gay men.

A gay student Londonderry has gone into hiding after receiving threats from men he says identified themselves as IRA members.

Paul Mooney, 20, says that he has beaten on a number of occasions. After one beating he required hospitalization for several days.

Last week, Mooney, who suffers from epilepsy, fled his home after two men knocked on his door and warned that if he continued to go to police about the attacks he "would have two less legs to walk on".

Kneecapping is a common form of reprisal for informants.

The threat came just two days after he was approached by another man on a Londonderry Street warned about complaining about being terrorized.

Mooney was turned down last week when he asked to be moved to another housing project.

"There's no doubt that there has been an increase in homophobic attacks in the city," said Damian Moran of the housing authority." We have housed five or six gay people over the last year as a result of homophobic attacks. In this case, investigation so far hasn't been able to substantiate his claims."

However, a police spokesperson said that Mooney has made a number of formal complaints about harassment and physical attacks since last August.

After fleeing his home he will not say where he is staying.

He now suffers from depression and is under a doctor's care.

"Why should I beg to be left alone," he said. "I don't harm anybody. I go to college, come home, and maybe go to the bar some nights. I'm not doing anything wrong but I've been driven out of my home - all because I'm gay."
They apparently have plenty of idle time now, so it's time to crack down. I hope the UK kills 'em all.

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Old 03-13-2005, 07:00 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon


Yeah, well, the IRA has a new hobby now:

http://www.365gay.com/newscon05/03/031305ulster.htm



They apparently have plenty of idle time now, so it's time to crack down. I hope the UK kills 'em all.

Melon
Come on Melon, that's not going to solve anything.

Unfortunately Northern Ireland is quite a homophobic place and this article does not surprise me and is probably true. In fairness however Sinn Fein are (officially at least) supportive of gay rights and have taken part in a number of gay pride marches. At the grassroots level there is probably a lot of homophobia, however.
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Old 03-13-2005, 07:04 PM   #26
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Originally posted by financeguy
Come on Melon, that's not going to solve anything.

Unfortunately Northern Ireland is quite a homophobic place and this article does not surprise me and is probably true. In fairness however Sinn Fein are (officially at least) supportive of gay rights and have taken part in a number of gay pride marches. At the grassroots level there is probably a lot of homophobia, however.
Sinn Fein is Sinn Fein and the IRA is the IRA. I'm not going to say that their political wing should be dismantled, but the military wing should be.

Equally, "orange" groups must be kept in check too, but when the IRA does crap like that, it shows that they have a little too much time on their hands now. "The war's over." Time to dismantle peaceably, but if not? Then do it forcefully.

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Old 03-13-2005, 07:09 PM   #27
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Indeed, I agree the IRA must decommission but statements like "The UK should kill them all" I'm sure you would admit yourself are over the top? There are thousands of hand guns held legally (and otherwise) in Northern Ireland by both republicans and loyalists, the excuse is "we need them for personal protection".

So yes, decommissioning should happen but if and when it does, realistically a lot of people up there on both sides will hold on to their personal guns, hide them somewhere, in the event that it all kicks off again, and hopefully it won't.
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Old 03-13-2005, 07:13 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by bonoman


The furtherest right party in Ireland wouldnt be as far right as the Democrats. I read a great book titled, Irish in America, all about how the Irish have voted and who they get involved with politically. The Irish have long been leading members of unions and labour organizations. Some of the biggest Irish organizations in the states are run by people within the Kennedy family and have always been firmly supportive of the Democrats. I'll try to look up some stats for you as i have seen them before but it might not be this week, we'll be able to discuss it later.
I wouldn't dispute any of that, but there's also plenty of Irish-Americans who support the Republicans.
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Old 03-13-2005, 07:21 PM   #29
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Indeed, I agree the IRA must decommission but statements like "The UK should kill them all" I'm sure you would admit yourself are over the top?
I support an equal harsh crackdown against both Catholic and Protestant groups. They've had years to do it peacefully. Years. What are they waiting for? Someone to put a little fire to their ass and threaten them with violence.

The irony is that I have become more supportive of the GOP approach to foreign policy. It's true: "negotiation" can and should be used, but you know what? No one is completely altruistic and people like Saddam Hussein, North Korea, Hamas, and, yes, the IRA will milk the "goodwill" for all its worth. If no one is forcing and threatening them to disarm and not disarming right away might lead to more negotiations and more incentives, then what's the incentive to disarm right away?

(I should reiterate that when it comes to GOP domestic policy, I think they are very much wrong and I will make no secret of my displeasure, but I have to give credit where credit is due.)

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Old 03-13-2005, 07:28 PM   #30
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Originally posted by melon


I support an equal harsh crackdown against both Catholic and Protestant groups. They've had years to do it peacefully. Years. What are they waiting for? Someone to put a little fire to their ass and threaten them with violence.


Melon
So let me be entirely clear on this. You stand by your statement that the UK should "kill them all"? In other words you would agree with the statement made a few years ago by former British defence minister Alan Clark (after he'd left office, in fairness) that the solution to the Northern Ireland problem was to "kill 3,000 people in one night", a statement which he subsequently retracted and his own (conservative, pro-Unionist) party criticized him for?

You honestly think that the UK "killing them all" would solve the problem?
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