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Old 02-13-2008, 02:02 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by unico



that's your alternative? next time i commit a crime i hope you get to interrogate me.
lol.....either that or tie you down and force you to watch endless footage of George W. Bush.

........I believe some people would confess to Lincoln's assasination just to stop THAT....

....




But seriously, you are not dealing with normal prisoners here. You're dealing with the people responsible for 3,000 deaths. There's a special place in hell for them and hopefully they'll get there very soon.

About obtaining so-called false confessions....do you really think the US is stupid enough to take these confessions at face value without substantiating the information? Also, I'm absolutely positive that the government has covered itself very well in terms of legality - I don't think they'd risk getting mistrials or confessions thrown out of court due to "constitutional problems".
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Old 02-13-2008, 02:11 PM   #17
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Originally posted by AchtungBono

do you really think the US is stupid enough to take these confessions at face value without substantiating the information?
Yes.


And regarding legality: Guantanamo itself is not legal, except for the US administration.
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Old 02-13-2008, 02:18 PM   #18
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Originally posted by AchtungBono
About obtaining so-called false confessions....do you really think the US is stupid enough to take these confessions at face value without substantiating the information?
Please see Exhibit A: Launching a pre-emptive strike under completely false pretext and the congress going along with it.

Quote:
Originally posted by AchtungBono
Also, I'm absolutely positive that the government has covered itself very well in terms of legality - I don't think they'd risk getting mistrials or confessions thrown out of court due to "constitutional problems".
Here's what went down, step-by-step (ooh baby, gonna get to you girrrrrl):

Step 1 - We can have lots of fun: CIA says "We did not torture!"
Step 2 - There's so much we can do: CIA says "We did not waterboard!"
Step 3 - It's just you and me: CIA says "Oh wait, you said WATERboard? OH. Yeah...we did that. But we're not so sure that's torture"
Step 4 - I can give you more: CIA says "You know, after thinking about it, waterboarding may be torture NOW, but it wasn't a few years ago when we did it."
Step 5 - Don't you know that the time has arrived UNHH!: CIA says "New plan guys, new plan. Let's use the legal framework from a few years back to cover our asses, since, you know, waterboarding wasn't illegal then."



Yeah that's right, I just used NKOTB in an FYM thread.
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Old 02-13-2008, 02:27 PM   #19
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The 5-step approach to flushing credibility down the toilet.
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Old 02-13-2008, 02:37 PM   #20
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but we're good and they're bad.

we can act bad, but it's okay, because we're good, and we only act bad so that people know how good we are.

you see?
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Old 02-13-2008, 02:38 PM   #21
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How any civilized society that calls itself a democracy and believes in justice, can detain people for 6.5 years without trial and at a military base called "CAMP JUSTICE" is just beyond my comprehension.

Any society that allows its government to do this should take a long, hard look at its principles, stop waving their flags so hard, and reexamine what they stand for as a people.
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Old 02-13-2008, 03:06 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by Billy Rotten
How any civilized society that calls itself a democracy and believes in justice, can detain people for 6.5 years without trial and at a military base called "CAMP JUSTICE" is just beyond my comprehension.

Any society that allows its government to do this should take a long, hard look at its principles, stop waving their flags so hard, and reexamine what they stand for as a people.
Amen. Our justice system has failed in the worst way. The fact that capital punishment is still allowed in any humane place on this earth is absolutely reprehensible. I can't be tolerant or unbiased on this issue. Anyone, anyone who supports capital punishment in any way, shape, or form is a despicable, sorry, pathetic excuse for a human being.
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Old 02-13-2008, 03:45 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by AchtungBono
But seriously, you are not dealing with normal prisoners here. You're dealing with the people responsible for 3,000 deaths. There's a special place in hell for them and hopefully they'll get there very soon.
You don't know that and never will. That's the bottom line. There's no measure of certainty. Beyond a reasonable doubt and that's it. It's not 100% certain.

It's not 100% certain.
It's not 100% certain.
It's not 100% certain.
It's not 100% certain.
It's not 100% certain.
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Old 02-13-2008, 03:52 PM   #24
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Originally posted by U2isthebest


Anyone, anyone who supports capital punishment in any way, shape, or form is a despicable, sorry, pathetic excuse for a human being.
Barack Obama: Position on the Death Penalty

says the death penalty "does little to deter crime" but he supports it for cases in which "the community is justified in expressing the full measure of its outrage."
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Old 02-13-2008, 03:58 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by INDY500


Barack Obama: Position on the Death Penalty

says the death penalty "does little to deter crime" but he supports it for cases in which "the community is justified in expressing the full measure of its outrage."
I disagree with him completely. I think he's 100% wrong in that opinion, and I'm very angry that he feels that way. However, there are other issues facing our country and our world right now that are more important (i.e. poverty, environmental/energy, healthcare, education, the war in Iraq, etc.) that I feel he has the right positions and polices on to move this country in the right direction. I think Obama is the leader our country needs right now. That does NOT mean that I blindly follow him or agree with everything he says. That's what the neocons on the far Right do with President Bush, and look where that's gotten them.



ETA: On a personal level, I think it's absolutely wrong and despicable of Obama to support capital punishment even if only for "extreme" cases. However, a president doesn't have much to do with this issue in terms of stopping it or allowing it. That's usally up to the governors of the states. The president can grant pardons, but that would be virtually impossible to do for all death-row inmates.
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Old 02-13-2008, 04:01 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by AchtungBono


I know you mean me BVS......and that's allright because you are absolutely RIGHT.

Well done!! Hopefully this will be just the beginning of bringing the masterminds of 9/11 to face justice...yes...JUSTICE!

....and yes, I will sleep very well tonight.......

and again.....it boggles the mind that you don't want the criminals of 9/11 to be brought to trial - or at least that's the impression that I got from this post - I apologize if I'm wrong.
It doesn't matter how many times people explain it you, you just never get it.

You have a warped idea of what justice is. Justice is when a someone who has commited a crime is held accountable for having commited that crime. That does not neccesitate death.

Vengance is when you seek to avenge a crime by inflicting an equal or greater amount of damage on the perpetrator of that crime. This is what you are feeling, no matter how many times you call it justice.

Here's the deal: You can never be 100% certain of a person's guilt. And if 100 people are executed, and just one of those people was innocent and wrongly executed, I don't care if the other 99 were the sickest, most monsterous fucks that ever walked the face of the Earth, if that one innocent person was executed, it is simply not worth it.

Prison is meant to be a quarantine - it it supposed to keep criminals out of society. Prison is not the country club you sometimes make it out to be, but even if it was - those 99 sickest, most monsterous fucks can eat three filet minions a day, bath in a jacuzzi, get a full body massage every day, watch television on 60-inch HDTV, etc etc etc AS LONG AS THEY ARE DOING IT ALL WITHIN A LIFE SENTENCE IN THE CONFINES OF A PRISON AND CANNOT RE-ENTER SOCIETY, and that would be just fine with me. Why? Because it would be a small, nay, non-existant price to pay for that one innocent person to be alive, for that one innocent person's kids and spouse and parents to be able to talk to him/her and not mourn his/her unjust death.

You are either ok with sacrificing that one innocent husband/wife, son/daughter, mother/father, uncle/aunt, brother/sister, friend for the so-called satisfaction of seeing the 99 sickest most monsterous fucks get fried, or you're not. You're either ok with killing that innocent person so that you feel like you have had your vengeance(because it is NOT AND NEVER WILL BE justice) on the other 99, or you're not.

It's your choice. You have to sleep at night.
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Old 02-13-2008, 04:06 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by AchtungBono


But seriously, you are not dealing with normal prisoners here. You're dealing with the people responsible for 3,000 deaths. There's a special place in hell for them and hopefully they'll get there very soon.
Maybe, but maybe not. There's no way to 100% ensure that these are the people responsible for 9/11.

Quote:
Originally posted by AchtungBono

About obtaining so-called false confessions....do you really think the US is stupid enough to take these confessions at face value without substantiating the information? Also, I'm absolutely positive that the government has covered itself very well in terms of legality - I don't think they'd risk getting mistrials or confessions thrown out of court due to "constitutional problems".
Umm, yes. The government has wanted to bring *someone* to justice for 9/11 since the beginning, and whether these are the correct people or not, it makes the government seem like there has been justice served.

As for the government covering itself legally, yeah, it has. Because these were military tribunals. There are very, very different standards and rules in military trials rather than civilian trials. As unico has already mentioned, evidence gathered by torture and hearsay is what the case is being based on. In a civilian court, that would never be considered to reach the standard of evidence.
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Old 02-13-2008, 04:06 PM   #28
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Originally posted by U2isthebest


I disagree with him completely. I think he's 100% wrong in that opinion
Wrong is quite different than "a despicable, sorry, pathetic excuse for a human being."
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Old 02-13-2008, 04:10 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by INDY500


Wrong is quite different than "a despicable, sorry, pathetic excuse for a human being."

You're right and, perhaps I used a wrong choice of words. I do stand by that statement though, in the sense that while they may not be despicable human beings, it is despicable, sorry, pathetic and wrong for them to feel the way they do about capital punishment. That's what I should've said in the first place, but I let my emotions get the best of me. I did edit my post before this one, btw, just to give a bit more of an explanation.
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Old 02-13-2008, 05:42 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by AchtungBono


I know you mean me BVS......and that's allright because you are absolutely RIGHT.

Well done!! Hopefully this will be just the beginning of bringing the masterminds of 9/11 to face justice...yes...JUSTICE!

....and yes, I will sleep very well tonight.......

and again.....it boggles the mind that you don't want the criminals of 9/11 to be brought to trial - or at least that's the impression that I got from this post - I apologize if I'm wrong.
I meant you amongst others.

But how can you make such a leap of logic? Where did I say not to bring them to trial? In fact I'm saying the exact opposite, I'm saying bring them to a REAL trial.
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