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Old 10-01-2005, 02:31 AM   #16
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sometimes i think a army is the reflection of the society it defends.
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Old 10-01-2005, 03:09 AM   #17
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Of course they are, rono. That cant be used as a criticism though. Armies are filled with ordinary people. Like all countries, there's good and bad people making up that country.
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Old 10-01-2005, 06:40 PM   #18
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Last night at their concert, Coldplay stated that the men and women serving in the military in Iraq are Heroes and dedicated a song from their new album to them. Their right and its great to see them and others show this respect which is usually lacking from the media and is completely absent from many groups on the left.

Everyday, the US and coalition military forces risk their lives to make Iraq and Afghanistan better places for the people who live there. The small number of prison abuse incidents in Iraq pale in comparison to the thousands of Iraqi troops, citizens, and yes even terrorist, who's lives have been saved or protected by the US and coalition military at various times over the past 2 and half years.

You can find bad apples in any organization or group in the world, and its sad when certain groups use that to paint everyone in those groups as being the same.
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Old 10-01-2005, 10:41 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
Last night at their concert, Coldplay stated that the men and women serving in the military in Iraq are Heroes and dedicated a song from their new album to them. Their right and its great to see them and others show this respect which is usually lacking from the media and is completely absent from many groups on the left.

Everyday, the US and coalition military forces risk their lives to make Iraq and Afghanistan better places for the people who live there. The small number of prison abuse incidents in Iraq pale in comparison to the thousands of Iraqi troops, citizens, and yes even terrorist, who's lives have been saved or protected by the US and coalition military at various times over the past 2 and half years.

You can find bad apples in any organization or group in the world, and its sad when certain groups use that to paint everyone in those groups as being the same.


i'd like to think this were true.

but reality is that the torture problem is not the result of a few bad apples; it is systemic, and it flows from the top down -- there has been a deliberate obfuscation of the definition of torture in order to enable it's practice. it starts at Rumsfeld.

check out my (largely ignored) thread on Cpt. Ian Fishback.

and it stuns me that they pinned this on some silly woman.
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Old 10-02-2005, 05:12 AM   #20
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i'd like to think this were true.

but reality is that the torture problem is not the result of a few bad apples; it is systemic, and it flows from the top down -- there has been a deliberate obfuscation of the definition of torture in order to enable it's practice. it starts at Rumsfeld.

check out my (largely ignored) thread on Cpt. Ian Fishback.

and it stuns me that they pinned this on some silly woman.
I do not think many on the left would want to think that is true. Instead its better to go fishing for people like Captain Ian Fishback in order to find problems and trouble that can be used politically to damage the effort in Iraq as well as effect things politically in Washington. There are thousands of Captains with service in Iraq and Afghanistan who have different views on the situation than Captain Ian Fishback, including my friends. While there may be questions about certain standards, nothing Captain Ian Fishback described seeing would be examples of a systemic problem of torture.

The reality is that Iraqi soldiers during the initial invasion, and insurgents and terrorist afterwards get the best medical treatment on the planet for any of their wounds if they are captured by coalition forces. If they become sick, they also get world class treatment. My best friend flew combat escort for a prisoner at Abu Graib who needed an organ transplant. The terrorist love to try and shoot down medical helicopters so my best friend went along in is Cobra Attack Helicopter to insure the terrorist would pay if they made such an attempt. But don't expect many on the left to mention the fact that US military personal in Iraq risk their lives to insure that captured terrorist get the best medical treatment on the planet.
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Old 10-02-2005, 05:18 AM   #21
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You know Sting, it's pathetic how you paint "the left". Just because someone opposes the war and the way the administration has handled it doesn't mean they don't care for, don't admire, or don't respect the troops.

Your attacks are uncalled for and petty at best.
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Old 10-02-2005, 06:20 AM   #22
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
You know Sting, it's pathetic how you paint "the left". Just because someone opposes the war and the way the administration has handled it doesn't mean they don't care for, don't admire, or don't respect the troops.

Your attacks are uncalled for and petty at best.
Did I ever say that "anyone who opposes the war and the way the administration handled it does not support the troops"?

Nothing is more pathetic than how the US military gets negatively painted sometimes.
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Old 10-02-2005, 11:17 AM   #23
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Originally posted by STING2


I do not think many on the left would want to think that is true. Instead its better to go fishing for people like Captain Ian Fishback in order to find problems and trouble that can be used politically to damage the effort in Iraq as well as effect things politically in Washington. There are thousands of Captains with service in Iraq and Afghanistan who have different views on the situation than Captain Ian Fishback, including my friends. While there may be questions about certain standards, nothing Captain Ian Fishback described seeing would be examples of a systemic problem of torture.


it stuns me that someone such as yourself who believes in the essential infallability of anything the US army has ever done and who believes passionately, against the odds, that the Iraq invasion was both a good idea and has been handled well isn't more outraged and angry at the torture performed by US troops. it seems to me that all your misty eyed stories about US troops giving medical care to wounded insurgents and whatever other good works have been done by the US troops in Iraq and Afghanistan are esentially rendered pointless by the torturing of US troops. shouldn't you, of all people, be up on your rhetorical soapbox, passel of UN resoutions in hand, and demanding that torture not be done in your name?

and what more evidence do you need to understand the abuse as systemic? for Bush himself to say it is? we have administration memos allowing for de facto torture of "enemy combatants" if "military necessity" demands it; we have new, Bush-approved legal definitions of torture that neatly allow all the kinds of horrors we have seen at Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo, Basra and dozens of other sites in the war arena. we have decorated captains testifying at great risk to themselves what has been happening - and we have a clear record of the administration's attempts to silence and initimidate them.

further, with so many allegations of absue and torture, and if it isn't systemic, why isn't the Bush admnistration and Rumsfeld in particular doing more to investigate? this lack of interest -- except when someone threatens to overturn the bad apple cart like Ian Fishback -- send a further message to the troops: it ain't no thing. and, remember who sets the tone for the tone for the military: the Pentagon and the White House

if the military spent an ounce of the effort they are now deploying to break Fishback on ridding the military of men who violate the Geneva Conventions, then i might begin to believe a word of your post.
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Old 10-02-2005, 12:17 PM   #24
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Thank you to your friend. His good actions do not erase the actions of the soldiers that have violated the Geneva conventions.

Nor should thier actions erase the good being done by other soldiers.

And I agree Sting, there is a tremendous imbalance in the quickness of some to latch on to the bad, and pay little or no attention to the good.
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Old 10-02-2005, 12:57 PM   #25
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ehm.

back to the topic maybe?

STING2, it would interest me what you (as an insider to military) think can be done to avoid such events in the future.
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Old 10-02-2005, 02:06 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
Thank you to your friend. His good actions do not erase the actions of the soldiers that have violated the Geneva conventions.

Nor should thier actions erase the good being done by other soldiers.

And I agree Sting, there is a tremendous imbalance in the quickness of some to latch on to the bad, and pay little or no attention to the good.


do you think this is true in the minds of the Iraqis who see these photos or the "arab street"?

the point i am trying to make -- and the converse of your second statement is that there are some who are so quick to latch onto the good that they ignore the bad -- is that, if you believe in this mission, then you should be the most outraged at the undermining of the mission by "those" (and that's very, very vague ... can we at least admit that responsibility for this goes all the way up to Rumsfeld?) who torture detainees.
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Old 10-02-2005, 02:51 PM   #27
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Originally posted by Irvine511




it stuns me that someone such as yourself who believes in the essential infallability of anything the US army has ever done and who believes passionately, against the odds, that the Iraq invasion was both a good idea and has been handled well isn't more outraged and angry at the torture performed by US troops. it seems to me that all your misty eyed stories about US troops giving medical care to wounded insurgents and whatever other good works have been done by the US troops in Iraq and Afghanistan are esentially rendered pointless by the torturing of US troops. shouldn't you, of all people, be up on your rhetorical soapbox, passel of UN resoutions in hand, and demanding that torture not be done in your name?

and what more evidence do you need to understand the abuse as systemic? for Bush himself to say it is? we have administration memos allowing for de facto torture of "enemy combatants" if "military necessity" demands it; we have new, Bush-approved legal definitions of torture that neatly allow all the kinds of horrors we have seen at Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo, Basra and dozens of other sites in the war arena. we have decorated captains testifying at great risk to themselves what has been happening - and we have a clear record of the administration's attempts to silence and initimidate them.

further, with so many allegations of absue and torture, and if it isn't systemic, why isn't the Bush admnistration and Rumsfeld in particular doing more to investigate? this lack of interest -- except when someone threatens to overturn the bad apple cart like Ian Fishback -- send a further message to the troops: it ain't no thing. and, remember who sets the tone for the tone for the military: the Pentagon and the White House

if the military spent an ounce of the effort they are now deploying to break Fishback on ridding the military of men who violate the Geneva Conventions, then i might begin to believe a word of your post.
I get angry when ever I hear about such violations or abuse that happen every year in the military as well as any other group or organization you can name. There are over 2.6 million people in the US military and every year, there are cases of abuse within the military itself. I dare you to find a population or group of people that size that does not experience any sort of abuse in any given year.

I don't think the fact that abuse is always going to occur when dealing with a number of people that size means that nothing should be done. I think everything should be done to report, check, and prevent cases of abuse. Abuse is never going to be completely eliminated, just like crime in general, but everything should be done to reduce the number of cases. I admit that clear rules or policy are needed where things that have been written are vague on what to do.

Take a look at the hundreds of thousands of military personal who have served in Iraq and Afghanistan vs. the number of people who have been accused of abuse. It is indeed a few bad apples.

The military spends a massive amount of time doing things that it seems you will never be able to acknowledge or believe, considering you don't believe a word of my previous post. They are the ones that have to deal with any of the serious negative side effects that such abuse can have within the organization as well as on the battlefield when allegations, accurate or inaccurate, travel around the world in seconds generating anger.

What really makes me angry is when charges get leveled at people and organizations that are grossly inaccurate or in some cases are completely false. What members of the media and liberal groups did to the US military in the Vietnam war was disgusting and it would be a shame if people let it happen again.
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Old 10-02-2005, 03:50 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2

Take a look at the hundreds of thousands of military personal who have served in Iraq and Afghanistan vs. the number of people who have been accused of abuse. It is indeed a few bad apples.


while you are right -- and i have never disputed -- that it is a small number of people who torture in comparison to the 2.6 million people in the army, what has been going on is far, far, far from a few "bad apples" doing some sort of fraternity "hazing."

as i have elucidated, as Fishback contends, as pretty much everyone knows, this is *policy* that has stemmed from a *deliberate* obfuscation of the interpretations of the rules of the Geneva Convention that has *intentionally* enabled and facilitated torture.

all the rest of your post is accurate, except for your laughable characterizatons of "the media" and of "liberals," but still hot air.

you ignore the real issues at your own peril
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