US 2008 Presidential Campaign Thread - Part 2

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diamond said:
I think success or failure in Iraq is indeed a 2008 campaign issue.

Matter of fact one of the main issues, if not the main issue.
Of course, but no one in here is campaigning. The thread is supposed to be for discussing the stances of the actual Presidential candidates. If what you (plural) really want is an Iraq debate then that should be a separate thread.
 
In response to deep's post of the the McCain article:

Wow.:| McCain is a U.S. senator and apparently he still doesn't have a grasp on the basic principles of the nation. That's all kinds of comforting!:happy: I think any fool can see by studying the Constitution and The Bible that the general framework of the Constitution, i.e all people are created equal (although, as we know, the founding fathers unfortunately did not mean "all" as in "all"). The statement stands though, and we've done a good job at building upon it with everything from the emancipation of slaves to the end of slavery, to the Civil Rights movement, to the Women's Liberation movement, to work done to end poverty and improve the standard of living. The list continues. We still have a lot of work to do in all these areas, but the improvements still speak for themselves. To bring The Bible into the discussion, anyone who has ever studied it will come to realized that it's general principles are similar. We are looked at as equal in the eyes of God. All people should have the same rights and freedoms and those that are poor and oppressed should have their rights fought for (preferably non-violently for anyone who's even glanced at the words of Jesus and the majority of the New Testament) by those who already have them. That being said, the major thrust of Christianity for me is still being able to have a relationship with God through what Jesus did on the Cross. That is what Christianity is. It's not a political position, a social position or anything of the sort. It's a position of the heart. A person's heart and conviction can not govern a nation of people with different beliefs, different values, and different backgrounds and goals. However, a person following the general rules and principles of The Bible is probably best suited for the job. Why? I personally believe that the general rules of The Bible and Christianity at it's core (believing in the divinity and salvation of Jesus alone, and accepting it for yourself) do not necessairly go hand-in-hand. The general laws of The Bible, treating others justly, looking at them as your equal, giving of time, talent, and treasure, showing mercy and grace to others, taking care others, of oneself, and the environment, are often practiced by people of other faiths or no faith (in terms of religion), than those of us who claim to be followers of Christ. So many of us Christians are so concerned with avoiding the fiery depths of hell and being a cutesy little moralist that we ignore the most basic foundations of what God wants us to do. We may be Christians, but we're not like God. The difference is simple; the basic laws of The Bible can be followed by anyone simply because they are what would make our world an ideal place to live. Those who follow them simply have a more joyful, peaceful, and all-around better existence than those who don't. These aren't things that one needs faith to believe in, in the religious sense. Everyone can follow them and make the world better. The main thrust of Christianity, accepting what Jesus did, is a personal matter. It simply will not be accepted by every person on this planet. Ergo, in a country that i is supposed to be governed by the people, and for the people, ALL the people; How can one person's religion be established as law? Not every person in the U.S. is or will be a Christian. Nor will every U.S. citizen ever be Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, atheist, agnostic, or anything in between. None of these belief systems should be set up as law. What should be set up as law are the principles of justice, equality, generosity, liberty, etc. The fact that these principle are all found in The Bible has nothing to do with them being "Christian" One is not a Christian because they follow said principles, because the only way to be a Christian is to believe and accept Jesus. That's a personal conviction that can never be legislated for any one. In a republican government, laws must be made with the benefits of the common good in mind, not the benefits of a group of peoples' (or person's) personal faith committment.
 
There really is not a problem with what McCain said in context of GOP primary campaigning.


Those beliefs fit perfectly with the voters that will determine who the GOP nominee will be.


Jews need not apply, along with most other non white males.


We do find Alan Keyes entertaining.
 
deep said:
There really is not a problem with what McCain said in context of GOP primary campaigning.


Those beliefs fit perfectly with the voters that will determine who the GOP nominee will be.


Jews need not apply, along with most other non white males.


We do find Alan Keyes entertaining.

Right you are. Yet, if McCain did become President he would not simply be the president of Republicans, Conservatives, and/or fundamentalists. He would be the president of every citizen of this country. The Constitution is not set up for Conservatives, Liberals, Republicans, Democrats, Christians, Atheists, or anyone else exclusively. It's set up for every citizen of this nation. If McCain can not at least recognize that and accept that he would have to leave his personal faith conviction out of the government and govern by the non-biased principles set up to lead this nation; he doesn't deserve to even run for president of this nation. This goes for anyone, of any political, religious, social, etc. persuasion that is not in line with the Constitution.
 
deep said:
There really is not a problem with what McCain said in context of GOP primary campaigning.


Those beliefs fit perfectly with the voters that will determine who the GOP nominee will be.


Jews need not apply, along with most other non white males.


We do find Alan Keyes entertaining.

You don't think McCain meant Judaeo-Christian Principles?

I mean are they trying to take a sound bite out of context here?

Do you also think that most non white males in our country, namely Hispanics and African Americans do not subscribe to
Judaeo-Christian Principles?

Or is this another attempt at race baiting and other methods of obfuscation that you're occassionally successful at in FYM only ?

dbs
 
deep said:
There really is not a problem with what McCain said in context of GOP primary campaigning.


Those beliefs fit perfectly with the voters that will determine who the GOP nominee will be.


Jews need not apply, along with most other non white males.


We do find Alan Keyes entertaining.

I think he would also said "yes" if the word Judeo-Christian was used. As in, we are a nation built upon Judeo-Christian values.
 
diamond said:


You don't think McCain meant Judaeo-Christian Principles?

I mean are they trying to take a sound bite out of context here?

Do you also think that most non white males in our country, namely Hispanics and African Americans do not subscribe to
Judaeo-Christian Principles?

Or is this another attempt at race baiting and other methods of obfuscation that you're occassionally successful at in FYM only ?

dbs

It's the statement about the U.S. being a Christian nation that angers me. To me, that statement reeks of exclusion and arrogance. To most people that says, "If you're not a Christian and don't subscribe to every statement of The Bible as truth, than you don't belong, and your views don't count." I am a Christian, and I do believe The Bible is Truth; yet that kind of remark doesn't sit well with me. I am no better than Jane Atheist down the street from me. Neither of our convictions should ever become law unless they follow the basic principles of this nation, which also happen to be Judeo-Christian. As I stated in my first post, one doesn't have to BE a Christian to have those principles as their values, and many non-Christians are much more in line with them than those of us who ascribe to Christianity.
 
AEON said:


I think he would also said "yes" if the word Judeo-Christian was used. As in, we are a nation built upon Judeo-Christian values.

If that is what he had said, and if that's really what he meant, than I suppose I could actually say I agree with McCain on one point.:ohmy:
 
U2isthebest said:


It's the statement about the U.S. being a Christian nation that angers me. To me, that statement reeks of exclusion and arrogance. To most people that says, "If you're not a Christian and don't subscribe to every statement of The Bible as truth, than you don't belong, and your views don't count." I am a Christian, and I do believe The Bible is Truth; yet that kind of remark doesn't sit well with me. I am no better than Jane Atheist down the street from me. Neither of our convictions should ever become law unless they follow the basic principles of this nation, which also happen to be Judeo-Christian. As I stated in my first post, one doesn't have to BE a Christian to have those principles as their values, and many non-Christians are much more in line with them than those of us who ascribe to Christianity.

Yes, and everybody (I would say the majority of US citizens) do not see John McCain as a Pat Robertson or Michael Huckabee figure nor a person campaigning for "Christian In Chief"..and that was the point of my post.

dbs
 
AEON said:


I think he would also said "yes" if the word Judeo-Christian was used. As in, we are a nation built upon Judeo-Christian values.

You do realize Jews, for the most part, do not use this term.

It is used primarily by Conservatives for political reasons.
 
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diamond said:


Yes, and everybody (I would say the majority of US citizens) do not see John McCain as a Pat Robertson or Michael Huckabee figure nor a person campaigning for "Christian In Chief"..and that was the point of my post.

dbs

a majority of US would have to agree that McCain is pandering for that voting block, if they are paying attention

and with a Huckabee or even a Robertson,
at least one feels they are not pandering but showing us who they are and what they think
 
Christian Conservatives Consider Third-Party Candidate

10/1/2007 4:34:21 PM Christian conservatives, concerned that pro-choice Rudy Giuliani may become the Republican presidential nominee, have signaled that they may support a third-party candidate who is more in line with their views.

Members of the Council for National Policy, a secretive conservative group, met recently in Salt Lake City to discuss the possibility.

The group, which includes such conservative powerhouses as James Dobson of Focus on the Family and Tony Perkins of the Family Research Council, is considering a resolution that says, “If the Republican Party nominates a pro-abortion candidate we will consider running a third-party candidate,” participants told the New York Times.

Of other concern to some Protestant leaders beyond Giuliani's pro-choice stance is the fact that he's been married three times and is estranged from his children.

Responding to the group, a spokeswoman for the Giuliani campaign provided a statement from Representative Pete Sessions, a Texas Republican who supports Giuliani, saying, “Conservatives are rallying around the one candidate with the executive experience and proven leadership our country needs.”

If the Christian leaders decide not to back Giuliani should he gets the GOP nomination, it could be a major setback for the moderate Republican's campaign since many GOP voters in early primary states Iowa and South Carolina identify as evangelical Protestants.

Although other Republican candidates are in sync with conservative Christians -- including Sen. Sam Brownback of Kansas and former Arkansas Gov. Mike Huckabee and former Tennessee Sen. Fred Thompson, their campaigns are seen as long shots.

Dobson, speaking of Thompson, wrote in a recent e-mail that Thompson could not "speak his way out of a paper bag."

"He has no passion, no zeal, and no apparent 'want to,' " Dobson wrote. "And yet he is apparently the Great Hope that burns in the breasts of many conservative Christians? Well, not for me, my brothers. Not for me!"

Who could blame them?

A person who compromises his principles is no better than a person without principles.

What honest Conservative Christian would vote for Giuliani?
 
AEON said:

As in, we are a nation built upon Judeo-Christian values.



no, we're not.

we're built on the secular humanist values of the Enlightenment with a diest perspective on God, who is so secularized in the founding documents that he's only refered to as the "Creator" and there's nary a mention of Jesus.
 
I think Rudy has a good shot to be the GOP nominee

and in polls today , he beats Hillary

but, come November 2008

It will be a different story








Rude Giuliani

If he wants voters to respect his privacy, he ought to show some respect for basic manners.

Monday, October 1, 2007 12:01 a.m.

A lot is going well for Rudy Giuliani's campaign. His fund raising is strong. He outstrips his GOP rivals in national polls. His speeches on taxes and health care were solid. He picked up some foreign-policy gravitas with a successful trip to London.

But there is a fly in the ointment. Even members of Mr. Giuliani's own staff are appalled at how he handled the incident in which he answered a phone call from his wife, Judith, right in the middle of a nationally televised speech to the National Rifle Association.

What was that about? Columnist Robert Novak cites "supporters from outside the Giuliani staff" who claim that taking phone calls from his wife as been "part of his political bag of tricks all year." But Mr. Giuliani's deputy press secretary Jason Miller told me the NRA incident was definitely not a stunt. Instead it was a "candid and spontaneous moment" that would humanize the tough-guy former mayor with voters.

Nice try. Just in case this isn't obviously ridiculous, Fox News commissioned a poll on the subject. It found that only 9% of Americans think a candidate should ever interrupt a speech to accept a call from his spouse.

The fact is that people inside the Giuliani campaign are appalled at the number of times their candidate has felt compelled to interrupt public appearances to take calls from his wife. The estimate from those in a position to know is that he has taken such calls more than 40 times in the middle of speeches, conferences and presentations to large donors. "If it's a stunt, it's not one coming from him," says one Giuliani staffer. "It's an ongoing problem that he won't take advice on."

And in trying to explain his odd behavior, Mr. Giuliani has only dug himself in deeper. On Friday he told David Brody of CBN News that since 9/11, when he and Mrs. Giuliani get on a plane, "most of the time . . . we talk to each other and just reaffirm the fact that we love each other." He admitted he had taken calls from his wife "before in engagements, and I didn't realize it would create any kind of controversy." That's hardly possible. Giuliani staffers say he has been warned over and over again that the phone calls are rude and inappropriate and have alienated everyone from local officials to top donors to close friends.

Consider a spring incident in Oklahoma City. Mr. Giuliani spoke twice at the Oklahoma History Center, first at a small private roundtable for $2,300 donors and then to 150 people who donated $500 apiece. Ten minutes into the roundtable, Mr. Giuliani's phone rang. He left the room to take the call, apparently from Mrs. Giuliani, and never returned. The snubbed donors received no explanation. "The people there viewed it as disrespectful and cheesy," says Pat McGuigan, a local newspaper editor who was asked by the Giuliani campaign to moderate the roundtable.

An hour or so later, Mr. Giuliani was speaking to the bigger group of donors when his phone rang again. While he spoke with his wife, he invited her to say hello to the assembled crowd. "It was remarkable, and was not viewed by the audience in a positive way," public relations executive Brenda Jones told me.

I've been told of many other incidents, from a California fund-raiser to a Florida speech to a gathering with top donors at Bear Stearns in New York. At the Bear Stearns meeting, Mr. Giuliani took a call from his wife and then noting the strained faces of his supporters, he sheepishly tried a joke. "I've been married three times," he explained. "I can't afford to lose another one. I'm sure you understand." (Mr. Giuliani's media office didn't return a call I made to them on Friday afternoon.)

Mr. Giuliani understands that such behavior is rude--when other people do it. A year ago Hanna Rosin reported in The Atlantic Monthly on a speech Mr. Giuliani gave at a motivational seminar in Iowa before he became a candidate:

Giuliani was up to principle No. 2 ("Follow your hopes and dreams") when he was interrupted. From down in the audience, just beyond the stage, he heard a cell phone ring. He stopped in the middle of telling a story. "It's okay, you can answer your cell phone," he said. "You won't interrupt me." The woman whose phone had rung was mortified; he had just embarrassed her in front of 18,000 people. In the "town hall" meetings he used to conduct as mayor of New York, through a radio show, Giuliani was not known for his good-natured populism. He was known for making fun of constituents who called him with what he thought were petty problems. This is the dark Giuliani, and here he was, making an unwelcome appearance.

He shifted to a long digression about the scene in "Dr. Strangelove" where General Buck Turgidson answers a call in the middle of a crisis and whispers sweet nothings to his girl on the phone, as the nation's political and military leadership looks on impatiently. "Just tell him you love him so I can go on with my speech," Giuliani said. No one was laughing. Giuliani actually waited for the woman to hang up. Then, after a painful minute or so, he was back in candidate mode, talking about Vince Lombardi and the mind of a champion.

Giuliani staffers say Judith Giuliani is in a league of her own. Many of the complaints are inside baseball: Staffers have been fired, advisers shut out of meetings, schedules changed based on her whim. But it was her idea for Mr. Giuliani to suggest on national TV that he might let her attend cabinet meetings. Her high-handed behavior prompted a series of negative profiles this summer, including a vicious one in Vanity Fair, which were said to have prompted her to retreat from day-to-day involvement in the campaign.

But not for long. The staff remains "terrified" of her, according to a former staffer. "Mollifying Judith is at the top of the to-do list for far too many people on the campaign," one person close to Mr. Giuliani told me. Another says: "The biggest concern is that if not corrected it will stir up questions about his judgment closer to when people vote--either before the early primaries or before the general election. It's a ticking time bomb."

Mr. Giuliani has so far managed to keep this question largely at bay by asking voters to respect his privacy. In August he faced down a woman in New Hampshire who questioned how he could expect loyalty from voters when he isn't getting it from his own children. His crisp answer: "I love my family very, very much and will do anything for them. There are complexities in every family in America. The best thing I can say is kind of, 'leave my family alone,' just like I'll leave your family alone." The audience applauded.

But if Mr. Giuliani wants voters to respect his privacy, he ought to show some respect for basic manners. When he arrives for a public appearance, he should check his cell phone at the door.
 
Irvine511 said:




no, we're not.

we're built on the secular humanist values of the Enlightenment with a diest perspective on God, who is so secularized in the founding documents that he's only refered to as the "Creator" and there's nary a mention of Jesus.

You can find these quotes all over the web. Please verify at your liesure...


Founding Fathers Quotes

"The country's first two presidents, George Washington and John Adams,
were firm believers in the importance of religion for republican government." --official Library of Congress statement

"...both the legislators and the public considered it appropriate
for the national government to promote a nondenominational, nonpolemical Christianity."--official Library of Congress statement

Have you ever read a quote that seemed to show that our Founders weren't Christians?
Click here to see an example of a quote taken out of context, and a tutorial on examining these quotes!

__________________________________________________________________
Early Years
The First Charter of Virginia (granted by King James I, on April 10, 1606)
• We, greatly commending, and graciously accepting of, their Desires for the Furtherance of so noble a Work, which may, by the Providence of Almighty God, hereafter tend to the Glory of his Divine Majesty, in propagating of Christian Religion to such People, as yet live in Darkness and miserable Ignorance of the true Knowledge and Worship of God…
Instructions for the Virginia Colony (1606)
Lastly and chiefly the way to prosper and achieve good success is to make yourselves all of one mind for the good of your country and your own, and to serve and fear God the Giver of all Goodness, for every plantation which our Heavenly Father hath not planted shall be rooted out.

William Bradford
• wrote that they [the Pilgrims] were seeking:
• 1) "a better, and easier place of living”; and that “the children of the group were being drawn away by evil examples into extravagance and dangerous courses [in Holland]“
• 2) “The great hope, and for the propagating and advancing the gospel of the kingdom of Christ in those remote parts of the world"
The Mayflower Compact (authored by William Bradford) 1620 | Signing of the Mayflower painting | Picture of Compact
“Having undertaken, for the glory of God, and advancement of the Christian faith, and honor of our King and Country, a voyage to plant the first colony in the northern parts of Virginia, do by these presents solemnly and mutually, in the presence of God, and one of another, covenant and combine our selves together…”
______________________________________________________________________

John Adams and John Hancock:
We Recognize No Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus! [April 18, 1775]

John Adams:
“ The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity… I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.”
• “[July 4th] ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty.”
–John Adams in a letter written to Abigail on the day the Declaration was approved by Congress

"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." --October 11, 1798

"I have examined all religions, as well as my narrow sphere, my straightened means, and my busy life, would allow; and the result is that the Bible is the best Book in the world. It contains more philosophy than all the libraries I have seen." December 25, 1813 letter to Thomas Jefferson

"Without Religion this World would be Something not fit to be mentioned in polite Company, I mean Hell." [John Adams to Thomas Jefferson, April 19, 1817] |
.......click here to see this quote in its context and to see John Adams' quotes taken OUT of context!


Samuel Adams: | Portrait of Sam Adams | Powerpoint presentation on John, John Quincy, and Sam Adams
“ He who made all men hath made the truths necessary to human happiness obvious to all… Our forefathers opened the Bible to all.” [ "American Independence," August 1, 1776. Speech delivered at the State House in Philadelphia]

“ Let divines and philosophers, statesmen and patriots, unite their endeavors to renovate the age by impressing the minds of men with the importance of educating their little boys and girls, inculcating in the minds of youth the fear and love of the Deity… and leading them in the study and practice of the exalted virtues of the Christian system.” [October 4, 1790]

John Quincy Adams:
• “Why is it that, next to the birthday of the Savior of the world, your most joyous and most venerated festival returns on this day [the Fourth of July]?" “Is it not that, in the chain of human events, the birthday of the nation is indissolubly linked with the birthday of the Savior? That it forms a leading event in the progress of the Gospel dispensation? Is it not that the Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the foundation of the Redeemer's mission upon earth? That it laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity"?
--1837, at the age of 69, when he delivered a Fourth of July speech at Newburyport, Massachusetts.

“The Law given from Sinai [The Ten Commandments] was a civil and municipal as well as a moral and religious code.”
John Quincy Adams. Letters to his son. p. 61

Elias Boudinot: | Portrait of Elias Boudinot
“ Be religiously careful in our choice of all public officers . . . and judge of the tree by its fruits.”

Charles Carroll - signer of the Declaration of Independence | Portrait of Charles Carroll
" Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure...are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments." [Source: To James McHenry on November 4, 1800.]

Benjamin Franklin: | Portrait of Ben Franklin
“ God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel” –Constitutional Convention of 1787 | original manuscript of this speech

“In the beginning of the contest with Britain, when we were sensible of danger, we had daily prayers in this room for Divine protection. Our prayers, Sir, were heard, and they were graciously answered… do we imagine we no longer need His assistance?” [Constitutional Convention, Thursday June 28, 1787]

In Benjamin Franklin's 1749 plan of education for public schools in Pennsylvania, he insisted that schools teach "the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern."

In 1787 when Franklin helped found Benjamin Franklin University, it was dedicated as "a nursery of religion and learning, built on Christ, the Cornerstone."

Alexander Hamilton:
• Hamilton began work with the Rev. James Bayard to form the Christian Constitutional Society to help spread over the world the two things which Hamilton said made America great:
(1) Christianity
(2) a Constitution formed under Christianity.
“The Christian Constitutional Society, its object is first: The support of the Christian religion. Second: The support of the United States.”

On July 12, 1804 at his death, Hamilton said, “I have a tender reliance on the mercy of the Almighty, through the merits of the Lord Jesus Christ. I am a sinner. I look to Him for mercy; pray for me.”

"For my own part, I sincerely esteem it [the Constitution] a system which without the finger of God, never could have been suggested and agreed upon by such a diversity of interests." [1787 after the Constitutional Convention]

"I have carefully examined the evidences of the Christian religion, and if I was sitting as a juror upon its authenticity I would unhesitatingly give my verdict in its favor. I can prove its truth as clearly as any proposition ever submitted to the mind of man."

John Hancock:
• “In circumstances as dark as these, it becomes us, as Men and Christians, to reflect that whilst every prudent measure should be taken to ward off the impending judgments, …at the same time all confidence must be withheld from the means we use; and reposed only on that God rules in the armies of Heaven, and without His whole blessing, the best human counsels are but foolishness… Resolved; …Thursday the 11th of May…to humble themselves before God under the heavy judgments felt and feared, to confess the sins that have deserved them, to implore the Forgiveness of all our transgressions, and a spirit of repentance and reformation …and a Blessing on the … Union of the American Colonies in Defense of their Rights [for which hitherto we desire to thank Almighty God]…That the people of Great Britain and their rulers may have their eyes opened to discern the things that shall make for the peace of the nation…for the redress of America’s many grievances, the restoration of all her invaded liberties, and their security to the latest generations.
"A Day of Fasting, Humiliation and Prayer, with a total abstinence from labor and recreation. Proclamation on April 15, 1775"

Patrick Henry:
"Orator of the Revolution."
• This is all the inheritance I can give my dear family. The religion of Christ can give them one which will make them rich indeed.”
—The Last Will and Testament of Patrick Henry

“It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.” [May 1765 Speech to the House of Burgesses]

“The Bible is worth all other books which have ever been printed.”

John Jay:
“ Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.” Source: October 12, 1816. The Correspondence and Public Papers of John Jay, Henry P. Johnston, ed., (New York: Burt Franklin, 1970), Vol. IV, p. 393.

“Whether our religion permits Christians to vote for infidel rulers is a question which merits more consideration than it seems yet to have generally received either from the clergy or the laity. It appears to me that what the prophet said to Jehoshaphat about his attachment to Ahab ["Shouldest thou help the ungodly and love them that hate the Lord?" 2 Chronicles 19:2] affords a salutary lesson.” [The Correspondence and Public Papers of John Jay, 1794-1826, Henry P. Johnston, editor (New York: G.P. Putnam's Sons, 1893), Vol. IV, p.365]

Thomas Jefferson:
“ The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend to all the happiness of man.”

“Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus.”

"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus."

“God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, and that His justice cannot sleep forever.” (excerpts are inscribed on the walls of the Jefferson Memorial in the nations capital) [Source: Merrill . D. Peterson, ed., Jefferson Writings, (New York: Literary Classics of the United States, Inc., 1984), Vol. IV, p. 289. From Jefferson’s Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, 1781.]

Samuel Johnston:
• “It is apprehended that Jews, Mahometans (Muslims), pagans, etc., may be elected to high offices under the government of the United States. Those who are Mahometans, or any others who are not professors of the Christian religion, can never be elected to the office of President or other high office, [unless] first the people of America lay aside the Christian religion altogether, it may happen. Should this unfortunately take place, the people will choose such men as think as they do themselves.
[Elliot’s Debates, Vol. IV, pp 198-199, Governor Samuel Johnston, July 30, 1788 at the North Carolina Ratifying Convention]

James Madison
“ We’ve staked our future on our ability to follow the Ten Commandments with all of our heart.”

“We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We’ve staked the future of all our political institutions upon our capacity…to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.” [1778 to the General Assembly of the State of Virginia]

• I have sometimes thought there could not be a stronger testimony in favor of religion or against temporal enjoyments, even the most rational and manly, than for men who occupy the most honorable and gainful departments and [who] are rising in reputation and wealth, publicly to declare the unsatisfactoriness [of temportal enjoyments] by becoming fervent advocates in the cause of Christ; and I wish you may give in your evidence in this way.
Letter by Madison to William Bradford (September 25, 1773)
• In 1812, President Madison signed a federal bill which economically aided the Bible Society of Philadelphia in its goal of the mass distribution of the Bible.
“ An Act for the relief of the Bible Society of Philadelphia” Approved February 2, 1813 by Congress

“It is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian forbearance, love, and charity toward each other.”

• A watchful eye must be kept on ourselves lest, while we are building ideal monuments of renown and bliss here, we neglect to have our names enrolled in the Annals of Heaven. [Letter by Madison to William Bradford [urging him to make sure of his own salvation] November 9, 1772]

At the Constitutional Convention of 1787, James Madison proposed the plan to divide the central government into three branches. He discovered this model of government from the Perfect Governor, as he read Isaiah 33:22;
“For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver,
the LORD is our king;
He will save us.”
[Baron Charles Montesquieu, wrote in 1748; “Nor is there liberty if the power of judging is not separated from legislative power and from executive power. If it [the power of judging] were joined to legislative power, the power over life and liberty of the citizens would be arbitrary, for the judge would be the legislature if it were joined to the executive power, the judge could have the force of an oppressor. All would be lost if the same … body of principal men … exercised these three powers." Madison claimed Isaiah 33:22 as the source of division of power in government
See also: pp.241-242 in Teaching and Learning America’s Christian History: The Principle approach by Rosalie Slater]

James McHenry – Signer of the Constitution
Public utility pleads most forcibly for the general distribution of the Holy Scriptures. The doctrine they preach, the obligations they impose, the punishment they threaten, the rewards they promise, the stamp and image of divinity they bear, which produces a conviction of their truths, can alone secure to society, order and peace, and to our courts of justice and constitutions of government, purity, stability and usefulness. In vain, without the Bible, we increase penal laws and draw entrenchments around our institutions. Bibles are strong entrenchments. Where they abound, men cannot pursue wicked courses, and at the same time enjoy quiet conscience.

Jedediah Morse:
"To the kindly influence of Christianity we owe that degree of civil freedom, and political and social happiness which mankind now enjoys. . . . Whenever the pillars of Christianity shall be overthrown, our present republican forms of government, and all blessings which flow from them, must fall with them."

John Peter Gabriel Muhlenberg
In a sermon delivered to his Virginia congregation on Jan. 21, 1776, he preached from Ecclesiastes 3.
Arriving at verse 8, which declares that there is a time of war and a time of peace, Muhlenberg noted that this surely was not the time of peace; this was the time of war. Concluding with a prayer, and while standing in full view of the congregation, he removed his clerical robes to reveal that beneath them he was wearing the uniform of an officer in the Continental army! He marched to the back of the church; ordered the drum to beat for recruits and over three hundred men joined him, becoming the Eighth Virginia Brigade. John Peter Muhlenberg finished the Revolution as a Major-General, having been at Valley Forge and having participated in the battles of Brandywine, Germantown, Monmouth, Stonypoint, and Yorktown.

Thomas Paine:
“ It has been the error of the schools to teach astronomy, and all the other sciences, and subjects of natural philosophy, as accomplishments only; whereas they should be taught theologically, or with reference to the Being who is the author of them: for all the principles of science are of divine origin. Man cannot make, or invent, or contrive principles: he can only discover them; and he ought to look through the discovery to the Author.”
“ The evil that has resulted from the error of the schools, in teaching natural philosophy as an accomplishment only, has been that of generating in the pupils a species of atheism. Instead of looking through the works of creation to the Creator himself, they stop short, and employ the knowledge they acquire to create doubts of his existence. They labour with studied ingenuity to ascribe every thing they behold to innate properties of matter, and jump over all the rest by saying, that matter is eternal.” “The Existence of God--1810”

Benjamin Rush:
• “I lament that we waste so much time and money in punishing crimes and take so little pains to prevent them…we neglect the only means of establishing and perpetuating our republican forms of government; that is, the universal education of our youth in the principles of Christianity by means of the Bible; for this Divine Book, above all others, constitutes the soul of republicanism.” “By withholding the knowledge of [the Scriptures] from children, we deprive ourselves of the best means of awakening moral sensibility in their minds.” [Letter written (1790’s) in Defense of the Bible in all schools in America]
• “Christianity is the only true and perfect religion.”
• “If moral precepts alone could have reformed mankind, the mission of the Son of God into our world would have been unnecessary.”

"Let the children who are sent to those schools be taught to read and write and above all, let both sexes be carefully instructed in the principles and obligations of the Christian religion. This is the most essential part of education”
Letters of Benjamin Rush, "To the citizens of Philadelphia: A Plan for Free Schools", March 28, 1787

Justice Joseph Story:
“ I verily believe Christianity necessary to the support of civil society. One of the beautiful boasts of our municipal jurisprudence is that Christianity is a part of the Common Law. . . There never has been a period in which the Common Law did not recognize Christianity as lying its foundations.”
[Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States p. 593]
“ Infidels and pagans were banished from the halls of justice as unworthy of credit.” [Life and letters of Joseph Story, Vol. II 1851, pp. 8-9.]
“ At the time of the adoption of the constitution, and of the amendment to it, now under consideration [i.e., the First Amendment], the general, if not the universal sentiment in America was, that Christianity ought to receive encouragement from the state, so far as was not incompatible with the private rights of conscience, and the freedom of religious worship.”
[Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States p. 593]

Noah Webster:
“ The duties of men are summarily comprised in the Ten Commandments, consisting of two tables; one comprehending the duties which we owe immediately to God-the other, the duties we owe to our fellow men.”

“In my view, the Christian religion is the most important and one of the first things in which all children, under a free government ought to be instructed...No truth is more evident to my mind than that the Christian religion must be the basis of any government intended to secure the rights and privileges of a free people.”
[Source: 1828, in the preface to his American Dictionary of the English Language]

Let it be impressed on your mind that God commands you to choose for rulers just men who will rule in the fear of God [Exodus 18:21]. . . . If the citizens neglect their duty and place unprincipled men in office, the government will soon be corrupted . . . If our government fails to secure public prosperity and happiness, it must be because the citizens neglect the Divine commands, and elect bad men to make and administer the laws. [Noah Webster, The History of the United States (New Haven: Durrie and Peck, 1832), pp. 336-337, 49]

“All the miseries and evils which men suffer from vice, crime, ambition, injustice, oppression, slavery and war, proceed from their despising or neglecting the precepts contained in the Bible.” [Noah Webster. History. p. 339]

“The Bible was America’s basic textbook
in all fields.” [Noah Webster. Our Christian Heritage p.5]

“Education is useless without the Bible” [Noah Webster. Our Christian Heritage p.5 ]

George Washington:

Farewell Address: The name of American, which belongs to you, in your national capacity, must always exalt the just pride of Patriotism, more than any appellation derived from local discriminations. With slight shades of difference, you have the same religion" ...and later: "...reason and experience both forbid us to expect, that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle..."


“ It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and Bible.”

“What students would learn in American schools above all is the religion of Jesus Christ.” [speech to the Delaware Indian Chiefs May 12, 1779]

"To the distinguished character of patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian" [May 2, 1778, at Valley Forge]

During his inauguration, Washington took the oath as prescribed by the Constitution but added several religious components to that official ceremony. Before taking his oath of office, he summoned a Bible on which to take the oath, added the words “So help me God!” to the end of the oath, then leaned over and kissed the Bible.

Nelly Custis-Lewis (Washington’s adopted daughter):
Is it necessary that any one should [ask], “Did General Washington avow himself to be a believer in Christianity?" As well may we question his patriotism, his heroic devotion to his country. His mottos were, "Deeds, not Words"; and, "For God and my Country."

“ O Most Glorious God, in Jesus Christ, my merciful and loving Father; I acknowledge and confess my guilt in the weak and imperfect performance of the duties of this day. I have called on Thee for pardon and forgiveness of my sins, but so coldly and carelessly that my prayers are become my sin, and they stand in need of pardon.”
“ I have sinned against heaven and before Thee in thought, word, and deed. I have contemned Thy majesty and holy laws. I have likewise sinned by omitting what I ought to have done and committing what I ought not. I have rebelled against the light, despising Thy mercies and judgment, and broken my vows and promise. I have neglected the better things. My iniquities are multiplied and my sins are very great. I confess them, O Lord, with shame and sorrow, detestation and loathing and desire to be vile in my own eyes as I have rendered myself vile in Thine. I humbly beseech Thee to be merciful to me in the free pardon of my sins for the sake of Thy dear Son and only Savior Jesus Christ who came to call not the righteous, but sinners to repentance. Thou gavest Thy Son to die for me.”
[George Washington; from a 24 page authentic handwritten manuscript book dated April 21-23, 1752
William J. Johnson George Washington, the Christian (New York: The Abingdon Press, New York & Cincinnati, 1919), pp. 24-35.]

"Although guided by our excellent Constitution in the discharge of official duties, and actuated, through the whole course of my public life, solely by a wish to promote the best interests of our country; yet, without the beneficial interposition of the Supreme Ruler of the Universe, we could not have reached the distinguished situation which we have attained with such unprecedented rapidity. To HIM, therefore, should we bow with gratitude and reverence, and endeavor to merit a continuance of HIS special favors". [1797 letter to John Adams]

James Wilson:
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution
Supreme Court Justice appointed by George Washington
Spoke 168 times during the Constitutional Convention

"Christianity is part of the common law"
[Sources: James Wilson, Course of Lectures [vol 3, p.122]; and quoted in Updegraph v. The Commonwealth, 11 Serg, & R. 393, 403 (1824).]

________________________________________________________________________
Public Institutions
Liberty Bell Inscription:
“ Proclaim liberty throughout the land and to all the inhabitants thereof” [Leviticus 25:10]

Proposals for the seal of the United States of America
• “Moses lifting his wand and dividing the Red Sea” –Ben Franklin

• “The children of Israel in the wilderness, led by a cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night.” --Thomas Jefferson

On July 4, 1776, Congress appointed Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson and John Adams "to bring in a device for a seal for the United States of America." Franklin's proposal adapted the biblical story of the parting of the Red Sea. Jefferson first recommended the "Children of Israel in the Wilderness, led by a Cloud by Day, and a Pillar of Fire by night. . . ." He then embraced Franklin's proposal and rewrote it

Jefferson's revision of Franklin's proposal was presented by the committee to Congress on August 20, 1776.

Another popular proposal to the Great Seal of the United States was:
" Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to God"; with Pharoah's army drowning in the Red Sea

The three branches of the U.S. Government: Judicial, Legislative, Executive
• At the Constitutional Convention of 1787, James Madison proposed the plan to divide the central government into three branches. He discovered this model of government from the Perfect Governor, as he read Isaiah 33:22;
“For the LORD is our judge,
the LORD is our lawgiver,
the LORD is our king;
He will save us.”

Article 22 of the constitution of Delaware (1776)
Required all officers, besides taking an oath of allegiance, to make and subscribe to the following declaration:
• "I, [name], do profess faith in God the Father, and in Jesus Christ His only Son, and in the Holy Ghost, one God, blessed for evermore; and I do acknowledge the Holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testament to be given by divine inspiration."

New York Spectator. August 23, 1831
“ The court of common pleas of Chester county, [New York] rejected a witness who declared his disbelief in the existence of God. The presiding judge remarked that he had not before been aware that there was a man living who did not believe in the existence of God; that this belief constituted the sanction of all testimony in a court of justice: and that he knew of no cause in a Christian country where a witness had been permitted to testify without such belief.

New England Primer:
Used in public and private schools from 1690 to 1900 second only to the Bible
Some of its contents:
A song of praise to God
Prayers in Jesus’ name
The famous Bible alphabet
Shorter Catechism of faith in Christ
 
Aeon

with all this jibberish you cut and pasted from some website that advocates for a Christian country

one question,

why print the Christian - Judeo?

when this really is not Jew friendly?
 
deep said:
Aeon

with all this jibberish you cut and pasted from some website that advocates for a Christian country

one question,

why print the Christian - Judeo?

when this really is not Jew friendly?

They are in response to Irvine's statement "nary a mention of Jesus"


I am not saying we should go back to the good ol' days of 1789...but I won't let people rewrite history.
 
AEON said:





I am not saying we should go back to the good ol' days of 1789...but I won't let people rewrite history.


thank you for saying this

I don't believe the founding fathers were extra-ordinary or that exceptional



as for some of them mentioning God, Christ or some other deity


What would one expect?

We were English.

And King George's authority was partially based on being God's representative as
"The Supreme Governor of the Church of England is a title held by the British Monarch that signifies her titular leadership over the Church of England"

So if the King was under God
and was a subject to God
and the people were under the King, his subjects

then the natural thing to do would claim to be direct subjects to God

remove the middle man, the King


I don't know how much any of them actually believed in any thing

but I would rather have my rights
endowed by a creator I am agnostic about

than have my rights granted by a King that can have me imprisoned or one that can confiscate my property
 
AEON said:




What in the world does 'Jew friendly' mean?

These are not Jew - friendly

Samuel Johnston:
• “It is apprehended that Jews, Mahometans (Muslims), pagans, etc., may be elected to high offices under the government of the United States. Those who are Mahometans, or any others who are not professors of the Christian religion, can never be elected to the office of President or other high office, [unless] first the people of America lay aside the Christian religion altogether, it may happen. Should this unfortunately take place, the people will choose such men as think as they do themselves.

“Having undertaken, for the glory of God, and advancement of the Christian faith


John Adams and John Hancock:
We Recognize No Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus! [April 18, 1775]


John Adams:
“ The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity… I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.”


John Quincy Adams:
• “Why is it that, next to the birthday of the Savior of the world, your most joyous and most venerated festival returns on this day [the Fourth of July]?" “Is it not that, in the chain of human events, the birthday of the nation is indissolubly linked with the birthday of the Savior? That it forms a leading event in the progress of the Gospel dispensation? Is it not that the Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the foundation of the Redeemer's mission upon earth? That it laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity"?


In Benjamin Franklin's 1749 plan of education for public schools in Pennsylvania, he insisted that schools teach "the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern."


Article 22 of the constitution of Delaware (1776)
Required all officers, besides taking an oath of allegiance, to make and subscribe to the following declaration:
• "I, [name], do profess faith in God the Father, and in Jesus Christ His only Son, and in the Holy Ghost, one God, blessed for evermore; and I do acknowledge the Holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testament to be given by divine inspiration."
 
AEON said:


They are in response to Irvine's statement "nary a mention of Jesus"


I am not saying we should go back to the good ol' days of 1789...but I won't let people rewrite history.



again, show me Jesus in the Constitution or the DOI.

the rest is decontextualized gibberish.
 
AEON said:


They are in response to Irvine's statement "nary a mention of Jesus"

that is what he did write

but where?

oh yeah

in the founding documents that he's only refered to as the "Creator" and there's nary a mention of Jesus.


founding documents:

Declaration of Independence

Bill of Rights

Constitution

and perhaps

The Articles of Confederation

of all your examples, are any of them from the founding documents?
 
Irvine511 said:




again, show me Jesus in the Constitution or the DOI.

the rest is decontextualized gibberish.

Wait, you said "we're built on the secular humanist values of the Enlightenment with a diest perspective on God,"

These quotes show that you are mistaken.

I can understand that you may not agree with their faith, or their conclusions; but to deny the Christian influence on the formation of this nation is a flat out lie.

But, we are getting off topic...the point is, it wasn't like McCain went out on a limb and said something extreme. His quote is right in line with the quotes I posted from men like Washington, Adams, and Jefferson.
 
AEON said:


Wait, you said "we're built on the secular humanist values of the Enlightenment with a diest perspective on God,"

These quotes show that you are mistaken.
.



but, um, clearly i'm not. :shrug:
 
AEON said:
But, we are getting off topic...the point is, it wasn't like McCain went out on a limb and said something extreme. His quote is right in line with the quotes I posted from men like Washington, Adams, and Jefferson.
please

there are all kinds of things that were said by these so called founding fathers that should never be repeated


I dare say if they were here today
they would be ran out of town
 
deep said:


that is what he did write

but where?

oh yeah

in the founding documents that he's only refered to as the "Creator" and there's nary a mention of Jesus.


founding documents:

Declaration of Independence

Bill of Rights

Constitution

and perhaps

The Articles of Confederation

of all your examples, are any of them from the founding documents?

I guess by 'Creator' they were referring to Buddha's dream of the lotus leaf...the quotes give context to the official language of the founding documents.
 
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