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Old 10-28-2007, 08:15 PM   #466
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Originally posted by U2isthebest
“Obama sounds too much like Osama,” said Kayla Nickel of Westlink. “When he says his name, I am like, ‘I am not voting for a Muslim!’ ”
Uhhhhhhhhh... . O-kaaaaaaaay...

Yeah, 'cause having a Christian like Fox, who makes statements like this:

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“We are the religious right,” he liked to say. “One, we are religious. Two, we are right.”
is so much better .

Quote:
Originally posted by INDY500
Dodgy title aside, I would agree with the article in that more and more Christians now see that religion shouldn't have the political affiliation of (R) or (D) next to it.
Right. And I'm glad they're realizing that, because it's true.

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Originally posted by INDY500
Which isn't to say that letting our political beliefs be shaped in part by our religious beliefs is a bad thing, I've argued otherwise many times.
The problem with that comes, though, when those who use religious beliefs to help shape their views try and push that line of thinking onto other people. I understand that religion will play a factor in the way some people shape their line of thinking, that's fine. Just don't force that religious mindset on me or anyone else, is all.

Interesting article, yolland. There were parts of it that scared the crap out of me, but thanks for sharing it, it was a good read .

(And a belated thanks to everyone else who's shared articles here, too)

Angela
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Old 10-28-2007, 09:23 PM   #467
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Maybe something more American like Jesus' step Dad

Joseph? Smith
Sorry, Joseph Smith was one of those bad Mormon fellows.


How about "Bob", Bob Smith. It's as American as apple pie!
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Old 10-29-2007, 03:47 AM   #468
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The most striking change in the political landscape in the past generation has been the "religion gap," voters (especially whites) who attend church "often" overwhelmingly going Republican while those that attend church "rarely or never" skew Democratic. Besides further polarizing politics it adds an underlying suspicion to the motives and actions of other party.

In short, "Democrats do the bidding of Satan" -- "Republicans want a Christian theocracy."
That you mentioned "(especially whites)" caught my eye, because as a native Southerner as well as a 'minority' of a sort, I've often thought about this "striking change in the political landscape" that's unfolded in my lifetime in light of that aspect. While I'm too young to really have meaningful reflections on the early years of that change, I do tend to suspect (given the traditional stronghold of such groups in the South) that many white voters who responded powerfully to the Moral Majority rhetoric of the late '70s and '80s--with its sometimes rather apocalyptic-sounding intimations of our very civilization being under dire and profound threat from an 'Evil Empire' within--did so at least in part because they'd been primed for it by pro-segregationist rhetoric of the '50s and '60s, with its own apocalyptic visions of 'our Anglo-Saxon Christian country' being under threat from a subversive mob of menacing blacks, Jews and Communist/atheist whites associated with them. And as with the Moral Majority, the audience for such rhetoric wasn't limited to the South--in particular, in both cases it enjoyed significant popularity in the Midwest as well. (Of course, there was a lot more going on in the '60s besides the Civil Rights Movement, and I don't mean to suggest that was the only salient backdrop; but it was, I think, a microcosm of other national tensions in many ways.)

On the flip side--and again, looking at all this from an admittedly highly personal angle--I found my own habituated deep distrust of the kinds of evangelicals I'd associated with both the aforementioned 'schools' of rhetoric growing up being tempered by my reactions to some very different attitudes I encountered after moving away from the South. Not in the sense of thinking, 'Huh, maybe those folks were on the right track after all,' but in the sense that some of the caricatures I encountered elsewhere of what they supposedly were 'all like' were ludicrous to the point of offensiveness (stupid, culturally vapid, humorless, 'white trash' etc.), accompanied by an unwarranted certainty that 'We don't have any of their flaws ourselves'. Ironically, a bit too close for comfort to the similarly (and familiarly) polarizing barbarians-at-the-gate-type rhetoric from the other side. As you said, "it adds an underlying suspicion to the motives and actions of the other party" and then some.

And more specifically on the religious-demographic aspect, I've always found it nonplussing how (until quite recently at least) people on both sides of this perceived bidding-of-Satan/theocratic-dystopia divide tended to dismiss the large numbers of black Christians, Catholics, and religious Jews who consistently lean Democratic as an anomaly--almost as if 'Aw, they're not really Religious People--they don't count.' Of course to the extent that some of those 'anomalous' folks likewise reflexively think their own religious affiliation comes with a (D) attached, that isn't any better. I agree with you that the apparent 'crackup' (or whatever less dodgy term one prefers) now unfolding is a hopeful sign for the country--it really does make collective priority-setting almost impossible when you're starting from the situation of being split into two camps, each of whose top priority seems to be reflexively opposing the other. Obviously the differences run much deeper than religious-identity-couched perceptions, but the particular forms of binary, essentialist political thinking those have given rise to have really been poisonous.
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Old 10-29-2007, 09:08 AM   #469
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By The Associated Press | October 29, 2007

Once again, Hillary Rodham Clinton leads in a poll. This time, she was top choice when people were asked which major 2008 presidential candidate would make the scariest Halloween costume.

Asked about costume choices, 37 percent in an Associated Press-Ipsos survey this month chose New York Sen. Clinton, the front-runner among Democratic presidential contenders. Fourteen percent selected former New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani, who leads Republicans in national polls.

No other candidate exceeded 6 percent.

Clinton was the choice of four in 10 men and one-third of women. While a predictable two-thirds of Republicans picked her, she also was the choice of 18 percent of Democrats. Among members of her own party, that made her second only to Giuliani as the scariest costume.

About one-third of independents, nearly half of whites and just over half of conservatives selected her.

Giuliani was the choice of 17 percent of men and 12 percent of women. About one-fifth of minorities and city residents and one-quarter of Democrats also picked him.

While many conservatives have doubts about Giuliani's candidacy because of his moderate views on abortion and other social issues, only 6 percent of that group said they thought he would make the scariest costume. That is about the same number as those who chose Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill.

The poll involved telephone interviews with 1,013 adults conducted from Oct. 16-18. It has a margin of sampling error of plus or minus 3.1 percentage points.
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Old 10-29-2007, 09:20 AM   #470
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COLUMBIA, South Carolina (CNN) — The controversial Gospel singer at the center of a gay and lesbian backlash against Sen. Barack Obama’s presidential campaign struck back at his critics Sunday night, saying that he has been "vilified" and declaring that "God delivered me from homosexuality."

Rev. Donnie McClurkin, who headlined the final installment of the Obama campaign's "Embrace the Change" Gospel concert series, did not comment on the controversy until the just before the concert's finish, when he told the crowd of about 2,500 African-Americans: "I'm going to say something that's going to get me in trouble."

"They accuse me of being anti-gay and a bigot," McClurkin said. "We don't believe in discrimination. We don't believe in hatred, and if you do you are in the wrong place at the wrong time. That's the whole premise of God. That's the whole premise of Christ is love, love, love. But there is a side of Christ that deals in judgment, and all sin is against God."

McClurkin has said that homosexuality is a choice and that he overcame homosexual desires through prayer, comments that drew fire from gay and lesbian activists and caught the Obama campaign, which has been using faith to reach out to African-American voters, off guard.

The Grammy-winning singer said Sunday his words had been "twisted."

"Don't call me a bigot or anti-gay, when I have been touched by the same feelings," McClurkin went on. "When I have suffered with the same feelings. Don't call me a homophobe, when I love everybody … Don't tell me that I stand up and I say vile words against the gay community because I don't. I don't speak against the homosexual. I tell you that God delivered me from homosexuality."

McClurkin's words drew raucous applause from the crowd, who had lined up around the block to get into the Township Auditorium in Columbia.

Although a small demonstration led by the South Carolina Gay & Lesbian Pride Movement had gathered across the street from the concert venue, they were dwarfed by the crowd of black Gospel fans and Obama supporters who turned out to see the performance.

Meanwhile, Obama staff were inside and outside the building, working the crowd and trying to register new voters.

Nearly all of the African-American concert-goers interviewed by CNN expressed support for McClurkin. Some referenced the First Amendment, saying McClurkin had the right to say what he pleased. Others agreed with McClurkin and said that homosexuality is a choice. Several more invoked the Bible and said homosexuality is simply wrong.

A September poll conducted by Winthrop University and ETV showed that 74 percent of South Carolina African-Americans believe homosexuality is "unacceptable."

Michael Vandiver, president of the South Carolina Gay and Lesbian Pride Movement said that he was disappointed by Obama's refusal to take McClurkin off the bill, but that he hopes it will be an opportunity for new dialogue.

"This is not a protest of Senator Obama, but rather a vigil in opposition of Reverend McClurkin and his statements on homosexuality," Vandiver said before the concert. "We're also here to show our support for Rev. Andy Sidden."

Sidden is the white, gay pastor added to the concert bill as a last minute compromise by the Obama campaign. Sidden's appearance was notably brief and anti-climactic: He said a short prayer to the auditorium at the very beginning of the program, when the arena was only about half full, and then he left.

Obama, while not present, appeared on a videotaped message to the crowd, saying, “The artists you’re going to hear from are some of the best in the world, and favorites of Michelle and myself.”

McClurkin said during the concert that he had been introduced to Obama by Oprah Winfrey.
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Old 10-29-2007, 10:26 AM   #471
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By The Associated Press | October 29, 2007

Once again, Hillary Rodham Clinton leads in a poll. This time, she was top choice when people were asked which major 2008 presidential candidate would make the scariest Halloween costume.



Ain't it the truth.
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Old 10-29-2007, 10:31 AM   #472
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Why does she scare you so much?
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Old 10-29-2007, 10:41 AM   #473
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Woman that can take white house = scary
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Old 10-29-2007, 10:58 AM   #474
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Yeah, why does she scare you?
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Old 10-29-2007, 11:32 AM   #475
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On the flip side--and again, looking at all this from an admittedly highly personal angle--I found my own habituated deep distrust of the kinds of evangelicals I'd associated with both the aforementioned 'schools' of rhetoric growing up being tempered by my reactions to some very different attitudes I encountered after moving away from the South. Not in the sense of thinking, 'Huh, maybe those folks were on the right track after all,' but in the sense that some of the caricatures I encountered elsewhere of what they supposedly were 'all like' were ludicrous to the point of offensiveness (stupid, culturally vapid, humorless, 'white trash' etc.), accompanied by an unwarranted certainty that 'We don't have any of their flaws ourselves'. Ironically, a bit too close for comfort to the similarly (and familiarly) polarizing barbarians-at-the-gate-type rhetoric from the other side. As you said, "it adds an underlying suspicion to the motives and actions of the other party" and then some.
This reminds me of Thomas Franks's book What's The Matter With Kansas? The premise of which was -- Why do these moronic buckle-shoed hayseeds let themselves be fooled into voting against their own best economic interests by "slick talkin" Republicans mouthing slogans and code words about faux cultural issues?

I enjoyed your observations. I suppose everyone at sometime in their life as a voter thinks to themselves, "why can't we have more choices." With only two parties, it seems so easy for groups that vote consistently the same way to, over time, find themselves painted into a corner where one party ignores them and the other takes them for granted.

Too bad we can't assemble our next president the same way Dr. Frankenstein assembled his monster.
"Ygor, throw the switch. Now...starting at the top...do we want Romney's or Edward's hair?"
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Old 10-29-2007, 11:36 AM   #476
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Woman that can take white house = scary
Next thing you know, we'll have a black man thinking he can run for President. The horror!







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Old 10-29-2007, 06:32 PM   #477
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WASHINGTON (CNN) — Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama said Monday he is "disturbed" by some of gospel-singer Donnie McClurkin’s views toward homosexuals, a day after the prominent Obama supporter lashed out at critics for calling him 'anti-gay.'

“It’s true we had a controversy…a gospel singer was singing at a gospel concert on our behalf, he was one of many, and he had some views that were anti-gay,” the Illinois Democrat said during an MTV/MySpace forum. “I am disturbed by those views and I have said publicly that I have disagreed with them.”

But Obama defended his campaign's affiliation with McClurkin, saying, "I have also said we have to reach out to those who have a different attitude on these issues to try to teach."

Obama added that in the course of his presidential campaign he has "spoken out forcefully and clearly to African American ministers and African American denominations saying we’ve got to get beyond some of the homophobia that still exists in some of these communities."

On Sunday night McClurkin headlined the final installment of the Obama campaign's "Embrace the Change" Gospel concert series, and addressed critics at the end of the event who have faulted him for saying homosexuality is a choice.

"They accuse me of being anti-gay and a bigot," McClurkin said. "We don't believe in discrimination. We don't believe in hatred, and if you do you are in the wrong place at the wrong time. That's the whole premise of God. That's the whole premise of Christ is love, love, love. But there is a side of Christ that deals in judgment, and all sin is against God."
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Old 10-29-2007, 08:00 PM   #478
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Originally posted by MrsSpringsteen
On Sunday night McClurkin headlined the final installment of the Obama campaign's "Embrace the Change" Gospel concert series, and addressed critics at the end of the event who have faulted him for saying homosexuality is a choice.

"They accuse me of being anti-gay and a bigot," McClurkin said. "We don't believe in discrimination. We don't believe in hatred, and if you do you are in the wrong place at the wrong time. That's the whole premise of God. That's the whole premise of Christ is love, love, love. But there is a side of Christ that deals in judgment, and all sin is against God."
So...uh...maybe let God decide then what is and isn't a sin, instead of doing it for him/her/it?

As for whether or not homosexuality is a choice, I dunno, I guess I figure a homosexual would know better than anyone else whether or not this was a decision for them, would they not? And why does it matter anyway?

That said...

Quote:
Originally posted by MrsSpringsteen
But Obama defended his campaign's affiliation with McClurkin, saying, "I have also said we have to reach out to those who have a different attitude on these issues to try to teach."
...that makes sense. How can we all hope to solve any of the problems in this world if we don't open up some dialogue between those of differing viewpoints?

Angela
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Old 10-29-2007, 09:04 PM   #479
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Did anyone else catch Obama on MTV/Myspace's open forum with him? I watched that tonight, and he's already been a definite frontrunner for me, personally. I have to say I'm even more impressed with him after this. He's the first politician that's made me feel this hopeful about this country's future after the horrendous past 7 years. I loved what he said about education and the failure of No Child Left Behind. I also was impressed by what he said about restoring foreign public opinion of the U.S. He said a lot of things that struck a chord with me, but those are what struck me the most. I was also very impressed with the intelligence and passion of the students. They didn't ask easy questions, and Obama didn't skirt the issues. All in all, this was very worthwhile for something put on by MTV.
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Old 10-29-2007, 09:09 PM   #480
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I watched and he really impressed me, I hope more take part in this forum...
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