US 2008 Presidential Campaign Thread - Part 2

[diamond]

yes.

 

[redhotswami]

nice dodge

i learned from you

to be fair, i don't think this little clip offers much of a basis to determine whether or not she is sexist. i don't feel quite comfortable labeling her as such just yet.

though i will say, that her affiliation with the american republican party could raise some suspicion on her stance. i don't know of too many feminist republicans. but then again, her title/position isn't even revealed, and that might also speak to something.

all that i can determine from this clip is that she isn't a clinton fan.

you still dodged my question.

and on a side note: mccain responding with "that's a very good question" pisses me off. so does the results of that poll.

 

[diamond]

Back to the larger point, men and women (generally speaking) are wired different emotionally.

If that were not so, programs like:

The View
Oprah
and a myraid of other media would be viewed 50/50 by both sexes, but they're not.

And that they're not makes nobody a sexist or "not in touch with his or her feelings".

It means men and women are different and we should appreciate those differences, not demand that they're meshed together.

dbs

 

[redhotswami]

there are differences which are labeled as feminine and masculine, but i wouldn't go so far as to have one peg for women and one peg for men. if you're talking about sexes, then yes. physiologically there are obvious differences. however gender roles are concepts that were constructed by society. gender is more of a spectrum with both extremes on either side and the middle is a purple shiny line of happy fun.

and that's actually not the larger issue in this thread, which is the campaign itself.

 

[diamond]

Agreed.

Actually I like strong women, not abrasive ones, and therin lies the difference between say Hilary and Margret Thacther, or even Nancy Pelosi or Diane Feinstein for that matter.

Hilary bugs alot of ppl esp men more than women, and it's not that she's strong minded, that is a positive trait irrespective of gender.



dbs

 

[BVS]

The View
Oprah
and a myraid of other media would be viewed 50/50 by both sexes, but they're not.

This is an example of men and women liking different things. This doesn't back up anything you've alluded to in the past.

 

[BVS]

Hilary bugs alot of ppl esp men more than women, and it's not that she's strong minded, that is a positive trait irrespective of gender.

What makes you believe she bugs men especially?

 

[diamond]

."Poll: Clinton lags in quest for male voters


By Jill Lawrence, USA TODAY

WASHINGTON — More than eight in 10 Republicans and more than half the married men in a new USA TODAY/Gallup Poll say they definitely wouldn't vote for Hillary Rodham Clinton for president.

The poll provides an early snapshot of who's ruling out Clinton, John Edwards and Barack Obama, the three leading candidates for the Democratic nomination.

Clinton, who tops national polls of Democrats, is strongest within her party. Only 10% of Democrats said they'd rule her out; nearly three times as many said they wouldn't vote for Edwards.

The new poll found that Clinton would defeat the leading Republican, Rudy Giuliani, in a hypothetical matchup. Still, some Democrats wonder whether she's potentially unelectable or a drag on candidates lower on the ballot, and rivals such as Edwards say they're better bets.

In a general election, the poll suggests that Clinton has the least potential for winning votes from Republicans — 84% say they definitely would not vote for her, compared with six in 10 for either Obama or Edwards. Independents show the least resistance to Obama and the most to Edwards.

The poll found that 36% of women wouldn't vote for Clinton, compared with 50% of men — and 55% of married men. Obama had comparable appeal to women and more to men. Clinton's appeal overall falls as income rises, the reverse of the findings for Obama.

Pollster Mark Penn, a top Clinton strategist, says Clinton's strength against GOP hopefuls is growing. "With candidates who are lesser known, typically we see the opposite pattern happen," he says, citing 2004 nominee John Kerry as an example. Penn also says her appeal to Republican women is rising, and nearly a quarter of them could defect to her in a general election.

Clinton's unfavorable rating in the poll was 45%, vs. 30% for Obama and 31% for Edwards. "A fairly substantial number of ordinary voters have doubts about her," says Jack Pitney, a political scientist at Claremont McKenna College near Los Angeles.

Even so, he and others say that doesn't mean Clinton is unelectable. Political scientist John White of Catholic University in Washington, D.C., says she benefits from "the demise of the Republican brand" and trends such as more minority and single voters.

Overall, 43% in the poll would not vote for Clinton. Top reasons: They don't like her, her husband or her views. Retired professor Charles Bilbrey of Harrisonburg, Va., 65, a GOP-leaning moderate, calls Clinton "abrasive."

Others cite Clinton's marriage. "My biggest reason is she put up with her husband" after his affair with intern Monica Lewinsky, says Republican Betty Muse, 77, a retired nutrition director in New London, N.C.

Political scientist Gerald Benjamin at the State University of New York at New Paltz says old scandals "certainly will surface" if Democrats nominate her. Mark Mellman, Kerry's pollster in 2004, says they won't matter much. "People know who she is. There's not a lot you can tell them that's going to change their fundamental perception

 

[BVS]

Where in that poll does it say she bugs these men?

 

[BVS]

The new poll found that Clinton would defeat the leading Republican, Rudy Giuliani, in a hypothetical matchup.

What does this say about the Republicans? That this nasty shrew that bugs so many men could still defeat their leading canidate...

 

[phillyfan26]

Agreed.

Actually I like strong women, not abrasive ones, and therin lies the difference between say Hilary and Margret Thacther, or even Nancy Pelosi or Diane Feinstein for that matter.

Hilary bugs alot of ppl esp men more than women, and it's not that she's strong minded, that is a positive trait irrespective of gender.



dbs

Do
You
Have
Examples?

Please.

Pretty please?

 

[BVS]

No
But
He
Can
Post
Pictures...

 

[phillyfan26]

No
But
He
Can
Post
Pictures...

 

[Irvine511]

to be fair, i don't think this little clip offers much of a basis to determine whether or not she is sexist. i don't feel quite comfortable labeling her as such just yet.

how would we feel if the question was -- "how do we stop the N*gg*r?"

 

[redhotswami]

how would we feel if the question was -- "how do we stop the N*gg*r?"

well completely different. but "bitch" is a more universal term is it not? at least for me, i call men and women bitches all the time.

 

[diamond]

well completely different. but "bitch" is a more universal term is it not? at least for me, i call men and women bitches all the time.

 

[phillyfan26]

well completely different. but "bitch" is a more universal term is it not? at least for me, i call men and women bitches all the time.

Yes, I hear bitch all the time, from men and women. Mostly in a joking manner.

There's not much joking with the N-word.

Either way, bitch I've always found to be much less offensive (although still offensive).

 

[Irvine511]

well completely different. but "bitch" is a more universal term is it not? at least for me, i call men and women bitches all the time.

yes, but in a joking context, right? more like, "beyotch" or "betch?" kind of like n-i-g-g-a?

this woman was not joking. she was using bitch, at least to my ears, as akin to a slur.

i think context means a whole lot. if i were to, say, address my crew and say, "all right bitches, listen up, we're pulling a late night tonight," that's one thing. but, yesterday, a male and a female coworker had a spat in the middle of the office. and she's obnoxious. we all know this. but after she stormed off, the male got really pissed and said, "my god, she's such a fucking bitch."

and i found that wholly inappropriate.

and i think that's what Diamond-in-a-wig is doing in this situation.

 

[redhotswami]

Yes, I hear bitch all the time, from men and women. Mostly in a joking manner.

There's not much joking with the N-word.

Either way, bitch I've always found to be much less offensive (although still offensive).

precisely. anybody can be a bitch. black, white, hispanics who lie about marriage*, men, women, wahoo fans, people who slam on their breaks for no reason on the highway, people who buy the last bag of garden salsa sunchips in the vending machine, etc. etc. etc.

the n-bomb is targeting a specific group. it was used to perpetuate racist ideals back in the day. bitch is just another bad word like fucker, asshole, and so on.



*sorry, still bitter.

 

[redhotswami]

yes, but in a joking context, right? more like, "beyotch" or "betch?" kind of like n-i-g-g-a?

this woman was not joking. she was using bitch, at least to my ears, as akin to a slur.

i think context means a whole lot. if i were to, say, address my crew and say, "all right bitches, listen up, we're pulling a late night tonight," that's one thing. but, yesterday, a male and a female coworker had a spat in the middle of the office. and she's obnoxious. we all know this. but after she stormed off, the male got really pissed and said, "my god, she's such a fucking bitch."

and i found that wholly inappropriate.

and i think that's what Diamond-in-a-wig is doing in this situation.

i see what you are saying. in the male/female coworker altercation, it sounded like he may have made that comment based on her mannerisms. what i'm saying is, diamond-in-a-wig isn't alluding to any sort of particular clinton trait. she just called her a bitch. i call bush a bitch. i'm not defending her or anything, but i think there needs to be more context before assuming that that was indeed sexist and not overall dislike.


and no, i say bitch. not beyotch or anything....though betch is catching on thanks to kelly (is she sexist?).

 

[anitram]

the n-bomb is targeting a specific group. it was used to perpetuate racist ideals back in the day. bitch is just another bad word like fucker, asshole, and so on.

I really don't ever use bitch in reference to a man nor do I know anyone else who regularly does either. I don't think it's equivalent to asshole or fucker at all.

And I do think Irvine has it right - in the context here, the woman was specifically referring to Hillary as a bitch for a reason. She wasn't using it because she was angry some random woman cut her off on the highway or made a pass at her man.

 

[No spoken words]

I really don't ever use bitch in reference to a man nor do I know anyone else who regularly does either. I don't think it's equivalent to asshole or fucker at all.

I do know people that employ the word in reference to men and women, and toss it off just like they'd toss off asshole. Admittedly, I keep unrefined company, but that makes it no less true. I cannot recall the last time I used bitch in any other way.

 

[redhotswami]

I really don't ever use bitch in reference to a man nor do I know anyone else who regularly does either. I don't think it's equivalent to asshole or fucker at all.

well, perhaps for you. not for me and most people i talk to. i never said everybody did. i call bush a bitch. am i sexist? am i referring to any sort of gender trait?

 

[redhotswami]

Admittedly, I keep unrefined company,

 

[anitram]

well, perhaps for you. not for me and most people i talk to. i never said everybody did. i call bush a bitch. am i sexist? am i referring to any sort of gender trait?

My point was that I disagreed with you that bitch was a universal insult used in reference to both genders. No need to jump all over me, I never even stated whether I thought the idiot in the article was sexist, much less what I thought of your description of Bush.

 

[No spoken words]

But I do. In 3 different cities now.

Present digital company excluded.

Regardless, I agree with you, Mia, as it pertains to the word.

 

[redhotswami]

who's jumping?

 

[anitram]

Well, sorry if I misunderstood, but your "tone" came across as rather irritated. Nevermind then!

 

[redhotswami]

no worries!

 

[diamond]

you guys are soooo lame.

dbs