US 2008 Presidential Campaign Thread - Part 2

[diamond]

I've always loved the story of the woman who saw her male colleagues getting promoted one after another in this Alaskan oil company and she couldn't break through the glass ceiling.
Then she left the company, opened her own one, and after, I think, three to five years she was able to buy her former company and immediately dismissed all the managers that wouldn't promote her.

I applaud stories like this.
Matter of fact it reminds me of my brother's wife in the bay area.

Although she's not a vindictive person.

dbs

 

[BonosSaint]

You guys need to understand my point, the average male doesn't like Hilary because she is bossy and angry and these traits will get nobody elected, regardless of gender--that was my point.

Being abrasive is more acceptable for a male than a female for whatever societale reasons there are, who knows-is it human nature?

 

[BVS]

On a personal level if I'm such a sexist how can I be happily married to a liberal minded educated woman with a Master's degree who earns well into 6 figures?

If I was some insecure sexist pig-don't you think she'd throw me out?

Well she's a liberal so she's probably a little more empathetic and forgiving.

You guys need to understand my point, the average American male doesn't like Hilary because she comes across as bossy and angry, and those traits will get nobody elected, regardless of gender-that was my point.

Are we clear?

Where's this poll you took? How does she come across bossy and angry? Examples would be nice.

 

[BVS]

Being abrasive is more acceptable for a male than a female for whatever societale reasons there are, who knows-is it human nature?

Yeah, that's not sexist at all...

 

[diamond]

Yeah, that's not sexist at all...

never said it was right though, I only acknowledged that it existed in our society, but didn't say I agreed with it.


dbs

 

[phillyfan26]

How do you find her abrasive? I mean, specifically, where do you see abrasiveness in her?

How is she bossy and angry? Specific examples, please?

Where's this poll you took? How does she come across bossy and angry? Examples would be nice.

 

[diamond]

A Breakdown on Clinton Ratings
By Dalia Sussman

Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton’s ratings in the latest New York Times/CBS News poll suggest that unlike her Democratic rivals, her favorability ratings worsen as voters’ income and education levels increase. The poll also found that Mrs. Clinton was far better known than her opponents, but more than half of those who had an opinion of her had a negative one.
Over all, 42 percent of registered voters have an unfavorable view of Mrs. Clinton, 38 percent have a favorable opinion, and 21 percent do not yet have an opinion. That negative rating is far higher than it is for Senator Barack Obama (21 percent unfavorable) or former Senator John Edwards (28 percent). Indeed, Mrs. Clinton’s negative rating is close to the worst ever measured for her (46 percent) since The Times/CBS News poll began asking about her in 1992.

Mrs. Clinton’s ratings drag among better-educated, higher-income voters. Her favorable rating drops 9 points, from 43 percent to 34 percent, among voters who have been to college, compared with those who have not.
Similarly, 41 percent of registered voters with annual household incomes less than $75,000 express a favorable view of Mrs. Clinton, but just 31 percent of those earning more agree. More than half of higher-income voters questioned view Mrs. Clinton unfavorably.

 

[Vincent Vega]

But this article doesn't speak about the reasons.
Certainly, it's not saying she appeared to be too bossy and angry to the better educated and richer ones.

 

[phillyfan26]

Can you please answer the questions that I quoted?

 

[diamond]

She feels bossy and angry to me.
I think that's why her poll numbers are poor among men in America-as indicated in the post that Mrs Springstten submitted.

dbs

 

[phillyfan26]

The questions I quoted asked for specific examples of instances in which she's come across bossy in interviews or debates or speeches. Saying, "She feels that way" doesn't make the argument.

Do you have any specific examples?

 

[BVS]

She feels bossy and angry to me.
I think that's why her poll numbers are poor among men in America-as indicated in the post that Mrs Springstten submitted.

dbs

You've become such a joke.

But I'm glad you are admitting that it's just you. She feels that way to you, that's because you have issues with women, but that's for another thread. You couldn't back up anything because it was just YOU projecting your ideas on the rest of America.

Admitting it, is the first step.

 

[deep]

When Rudy Giuliani steps into the cold winter light of Iowa and New Hampshire, Bernie Kerik's shadow will be right behind him.

Kerik's indictment on multiple corruption charges - many committed while working as Giuliani's bodyguard, jail chief and police commissioner - has all but assured that what some call the "Bernie Business" will never be far away.

Indeed, lawyers have announced that the first pretrial hearing in Kerik's case will be Jan. 16 - smack in the middle of the most critical primary stretch.

That's 13 days after voting begins in Iowa, three days before the South Carolina primary and less than three weeks before 21 states go to the polls on Feb. 5 - a day Team Giuliani considers vital to success.

The worst scenario for Giuliani? He survives the early primaries, only to face the spectacle of a public trial generating daily headlines as the general election heats up next fall - and the possibility of being called as a witness.

 

[Bono's shades]

The political reporter at the paper I work for has met Hillary Clinton. He said she was very charming and personable.

 

[Diemen]

She feels bossy and angry to me.

Similar to the way an Arab man in a turban makes some people feel suspicious, I'm sure.

 

[Earnie Shavers]

Diamond - no more photos of Maggie Thatcher okay? It's too early in the morning (in Australia anyway). Thank you.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

And genetically speaking you're wired closer to a woman than most men.

So is that supposed to be an insult? It certainly implies that it is in the context in which you made it. If you meant it that way well that's certainly a sexist comment. And if he is well that's one of the highest compliments you can pay a man as far as I'm concerned-even though it's not about being "wired" in any way, it's about being open minded and sensitive to what the real deal is in the world regarding that subject. It's also one of the highest compliments to them when a guy recognizes sexism and calls it out. Your comments just speak for themselves, so to backtrack on them well.. and that one certainly spoke for itself. You are accountable for those here and will be judged on those-not on what your wife thinks and your relationship with her. It's like the old playing a doctor on tv thing that I mentioned before.

GWB isn't "bossy and angry"? Examine that one. And the male candidates aren't, right? Especially your hero Romney-well he disguises his bossiness and anger when it suits his purposes.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

I can't even begin to fathom what the hell's going on in this thread now. The lack of logic is just too maddening for my brain to handle.

Logic? What does that have to do with it? You expect logic?

You're just wired closer to a woman than most men are. So cut the crap and get with the program

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

I applaud stories like this.
Matter of fact it reminds me of my brother's wife in the bay area.

Although she's not a vindictive person.

dbs

So certain types of women are "vindictive"? What exactly do you mean by the use of that word?

 

[coemgen]

Can Obama Rock the Nomination?
By Ana Marie Cox for TIME

How good was Barack Obama's speech at the Iowa Democratic Party Jefferson Jackson dinner Saturday night? Long after the event ended, as a scrum of giddy Obama staffers were all-but-forcibly exited from the bar of the Fort Des Moines Hotel, they struck up a spontaneous chorus of the campaign's newly debuted catchphrase: "Fired up!" Beat. "Ready to go!" Beat "Fired up!" Beat. "Ready to go!" This slightly manic release of tension and elation wasn't surprising. What was surprising was the person leading it: John Edwards campaign manager Joe Trippi, who punctuated each explosive slogan with a pumped fist.

Not that Trippi is a convert. (One Edwards staffer said that Trippi was simply showing support for the "change gang.") And, it's true, the Edwards campaign is alive and well in Iowa. Privately, rival campaigns concede that Edwards would probably win if the caucuses were held, say, tonight. Says one organizer, "His supporters are largely previous caucus-goers; you don't have to convince them very hard to go again. Everyone else is going to need all the convincing we can manage in the next month and a half." The excitement generated by Obama's fiery but disciplined speech is a reminder of what it means to convince someone.

The speech mixed inspiration and contempt, passion and outrage, autobiography and attack. It balanced language that both harkened back to the rich, poetic phrases of Martin Luther King (he cited King's reminder about "the fierce urgency of now") and the less subtle patois of contemporary politics — his boast that "when I'm your nominee, my opponent won't be able to say that I supported this war in Iraq; or that I gave George Bush the benefit of the doubt on Iran," was a deft jab to the very center of Hillary Clinton's weaknesses in the Democratic primary. Unless you think he got to the center of her weaknesses here: "Not answering questions because we're afraid our answers just won't be popular just won't do it." Or maybe here: "Telling Americans what they think they want to hear instead of telling the American people what they need to hear just won't do it." And yet he ended on a soaring note: "In this election — at this moment — let us reach for what we know is possible. A nation healed. A world repaired. An America that believes again."

After the most recent Democratic debate late last month, Obama was gently scolded by the pundit class for having denied them the fireworks promised between the Illinois senator and Hillary Clinton. Chris Cillizza chided, "He is not someone who enjoys direct confrontation and is still learning the political necessity of the tactic," while Real Clear Politics accused Obama of "backing off." Perhaps, some theorized, he was somehow suffering from his ability to "transcend politics." He was a rock star without an anthem, all charisma but no courage.

Staffers say that the senator struggled with the perception that he was coasting. "It's a much more visceral message now," says senior adviser David Axelrod. "It's much more from his gut ... the stakes are high, and he wanted to make sure his full motivations were clear." And over the past few weeks, his attitude evolved from trying to figure out what might be going wrong to realizing there was, Axelrod says, "a reason to do this now." As he told CBS news in the days before the dinner, "I think there was a period of time when things were static and people liked what they were hearing from me, but they didn't have a sense that there were significant differences between me and Sen. Clinton."

Indeed, Wednesday, he reminded the listeners of Radio Iowa that "'politics of hope' he's been talking about don't mean that things come easy — or that there won't be a fight." Thursday, he said of Clinton's ethanol position, "If she's willing to shift this quickly on this issue, we don't know whether she will shift back when it gets hard," then dinged her on Iran: "Just remember who got it right and who got it wrong in the most important decision!"

As Clinton trudged through a week of momentum-sapping process stories — her supposed failure to leave a tip, the presence of a planted question in a town hall — Obama appeared to gain energy. His speech at the dinner was the performance of a politician, not a rock star. But he has found his voice.

 

[diamond]

So certain types of women are "vindictive"? What exactly do you mean by the use of that word?

Go re read the brief story and see if you can figure it out.

dbs

 

[diamond]

So is that supposed to be an insult? I

More of a joke, and I've been told by my sisters that I'm the most sensitive brother they have-of 4 men in the family.

So put that in your pipe and smoke it.




dbs

 

[diamond]

Not good news for the shrew; a tough week apparently:

Falling Flags
Email
Share November 12, 2007 9:05 AM

ABC News' Eloise Harper and Rick Klein Report: It's been a rough stretch for Hillary Clinton -- a tough debate performance, a lost voice, and the revelation that the Clinton campaign had been coaching questioners at events.

Then, on Sunday, everything started falling down around her.

After a very Presidential-esque news conference - Clinton turned around to leave the reporters and their peppering questions. A staffer swooped open a curtain, and chaos ensued. Four large American flags came crashing in front of Senator Clinton as she headed for the door. In a controlled panic, the staffers and the Senator attempted to catch the flags before they fell to the ground.

Watch the i-CAUGHT VIDEO HERE.

"I think the bases are not weighted enough," Clinton said as she propped flags back up. One of Clinton's aides quickly summoned the advance man in charge to assist in the crisis.

Clinton's spokesperson shifted back and forth between the cameras and the flag commotion before looking right at the cameras and saying, "Thanks everyone."

There were no planted questions to worry about, but on this Veterans Day the flags dropping all around the Senator created quite a stir among the press before Clinton fled the scene.

There's more on Clinton's recent woes -- and whether the former first lady is looking more vulnerable than inevitable these days in The Note.

November 12, 2007 in 2008: Democrats | Permalink | User Comments (234)

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Maybe that is a sign of what would happen if she became President with a Democrat controlled congress?

Posted by: Steve | Nov 12, 2007 10:17:29 AM

No comment needed. American flags falling in the presence of Hillary says it all.

Posted by: maz | Nov 12, 2007 10:18:27 AM

This is an omen.
America will come crashing down if Hillary is elected President.

Posted by: dlbizzz | Nov 12, 2007 10:18:28 AM

Is that karma or what?? Even the American Flags don't like Hillary

Posted by: Mitch Pawl | Nov 12, 2007 10:18:46 AM

A perfect metaphor of what Hillary's presidency would mean to this country!

Posted by: Miguel B. | Nov 12, 2007 10:18:56 AM

Talk about a harbinger of things to come. This is actually quite amusing. Poor Hilldabeast, the fates can't be silenced despite her all consuming ambition.

Posted by: Allan | Nov 12, 2007 10:20:00 AM

poor Hillary...

Posted by: artemis | Nov 12, 2007 10:20:04 AM

Where is the video of this??? I can't find any other report of this incident online? This sounds hilarious. Can you say media blackout?? Props to Eloise and Rick for reporting the truth and the bumbling Clinton campaign.

Posted by: Kevin | Nov 12, 2007 10:20:13 AM

That's exactly what would happen to the country if her or any other leftist Democrat were electron President. It would come crashing down. Didn't we learn anything from her husbands ignorance of those that want to Destroy America? I know Dems didn't.

 

[INDY500]

Being a bit of stumblebum myself, I can actually conjure up some empathy for Hillary.

As for being a metaphor...hardly, and it certainly doesn't compare to Giuliani's comments about abortion being interrupted by bolts of lightning from the heavens.

 

[BonosSaint]

Guess Hillary won't be getting the superstitious vote then.

 

[phillyfan26]

More of a joke, and I've been told by my sisters that I'm the most sensitive brother they have-of 4 men in the family.

So put that in your pipe and smoke it.




dbs

Yeah, c'mon Mrs. Springsteen, Diamond can say whatever the hell he wants as long as he's get a nice at the end of his post.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

More of a joke, and I've been told by my sisters that I'm the most sensitive brother they have-of 4 men in the family.

So put that in your pipe and smoke it

Once again, you're accountable for what you say and do here-not for what your sisters say about you. I bet some people in Interference have nice things said about them by others and their friends, but that doesn't excuse or explain their behavior around here and how they post. I'm just waiting for a rational defense of what you have said. Based in logic and not in what other people say about you. That's all.

So a woman who fires the managers who wouldn't promote her is "vindictive"? I'd day it's more like karma is a bitch, not the woman.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

The Gender Rules

Posted November 12, 2007 by Caryl Rivers

I first realized that there were different parameters for male and female behavior in the schoolyard at St. Michael's school. There was a boy's side and a girl's side to the yard, and we fifth-graders mostly stayed on our sides, except when groups of boys made forays to chase the girls and snatch our book bags and hats.

After one of these raids, my friend Sally and I decided we'd had enough. We sallied over to boyland with steely eyes, pushing a half-dozen boys to the ground and getting back our purloined hats. Mine was a striped wool number that I especially treasured, and I didn't like seeing high fashion used in a stupid game of catch.

As it turned out, Sally and I were the ones who got in trouble. We were called before the principal, while various boys stood up to testify testified about our egregious behavior. (If I'd known about such things, I'd have sworn it was a Politburo purge.) When we protested that we were merely acting in self-defense, it was made clear that while boys would be boys, we were expected to uphold the genteel standard of behavior of nice young ladies.

I keep thinking about the hat grab incident as the presidential campaign grinds on. The fifth-grade rules, it seems, are still in force.

For example, imagine a woman running for president who was on her third marriage (having dallied with husband number three while still living under the same roof as husband number 2.) Imagine also that she was estranged from her children, one of whom was working for another candidate.

Imagine a woman whose husband came down with cancer during her campaign, who decided to continue running for president for the good of the nation.

Imagine a woman candidate married to man nearly 40 years younger.

Imagine a woman whose husband suffered from multiple sclerosis out campaigning for president.

Each of these scenarios is true for male candidates currently running -- Guliani, Edwards, Thompson, and Romney. But such behavior would violate a number of big-time taboos for a female candidate. She could not be seen to be violating her prime duty to care for an ailing spouse (the selfish scenario); she couldn't be multiply married (the harlot scenario); she couldn't be at odds with her kids (the bad mommy scenario); and she could not be seen as having married a "boy toy" (back to harlot turf.)

Women candidates walk a knife-edge between appropriate and inappropriate behavior. In Hillary Clinton's case it's a delicate balancing act between shrill feminism and weak womanhood.

With perfect timing, a report report released last week by the management think tank Catalyst reflects this conundrum. In "The Double-Bind Dilemma for Women in Leadership: Damned if You Do, Doomed if You Don't," Catalyst finds that gender stereotyping frequently places women business leaders in "double-bind, 'no-win' dilemmas." Men are still viewed as "default leaders" and women as "atypical leaders," with the perception that no matter what they do, they violate accepted norms of leadership,.

When women exhibit strong and assertive styles, they are seen as competent but not personable or well liked. But if they adopt a more stereotypically feminine style, they are liked, but seen as weak.

It's not just Hillary Clinton who encounters this double bind. When Elizabeth Dole ran for president in 1980, she hit the very same wall.

In early polls she was the only Republican who out-polled Al Gore. But researchers Caroline Headman, Susan J. Carroll and Stephanie Olson of Rutgers University noted that Dole, once a darling of the press, seemed to visibly shrink in media accounts the more serious she became. Before she ran for president, it was hard to find an article that didn't present Dole as accomplished, capable, and charming. Suddenly, Liddy Dole turned into the Wicked Witch of the West, over-ambitious, chilly and nasty under the "syrupy" Southern accent. Here's Time describing her with her staff:

"If a staff member is lax, the unlucky individual gets the LOOK -- set jaw, icy stare -- and is frozen out."

If a man presented this visage to his staff, he'd be seen as a forceful, take-charge personality.

Early on, the Rutgers' scientists report, Dole was never covered like her male colleagues. She never got the level of coverage that her polling indicates she should have had. In fact, she received about the same coverage as Gary Bauer and Steve Forbes, two decidedly un-charismatic men who lacked polling strength and had little chance of winning. In most respects, Dole's coverage was similar to that of Forbes, Bauer and outsider Alan Keyes. George W. Bush and John McCain received much more coverage.

Often, the press focused on Dole's "first woman" status, giving the impression that she was a "backbencher," not the seasoned political operative she in fact was. In pre-primary days, the study found, John McCain received quite favorable attention, even when he was only a relatively unknown face in the crowd and well before he became a media star. He was often called a "presidential hopeful," while Dole was usually mentioned in terms of her presumed inability to raise money. "Dole was most often described as a candidate lacking fund-raising ability and a real shot at the nomination." Of course this became self-fulfilling prophecy. The more the press says you can't raise money, the more you can't raise money.

The press focused more on Dole's personality traits than those of other candidates. She was called "rehearsed, scripted, robotic, controlled, frozen, a "Stepford Wife." (Could these same qualities in a man be called "focused, stays on message, articulate?") Her speaking style was dubbed "Tammy Faye Bakker meets the Home Shopping Network." There was speculation about her sex life and her hairdo was compared to an immobile fabric that wouldn't wrinkle or stretch.

Today, when Hillary Clinton makes any reference to the fact that she's female, she's seen as playing the Gender Card. But nobody talks about the Testosterone Card when the guys fairly climb all over each other to proclaim who's going to bomb Iran first or smack down any hapless immigrant who tries to sneak across the border. Nobody wants to be, in the immortal words of Arnold Schwarzenegger, a "girlie" man.

Will as this change anytime soon? Don't bet on it. As for me I'm just waiting for the day that a woman who has divorced three husbands, who is cavorting with a 20-something rock star with piercings, who bakes a mean apple pie and can hit a bird on the wing with a Glock 9 millimeter, gets the nomination.

Now that would be progress.

Boston University Journalism professor Caryl Rivers is the author of "Selling Anxiety: How the News Media Scare Women."

 

[verte76]

Hillary is no different from the men......politicians tend to be agressive people. I'm supporting Edwards because I think he's more electable in the general election.....people are less likely to vote for a woman.

 

[diamond]

Hilary has "planted questioners" at her rallies to make her look good:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video_log/2007/11/interview_with_student_who_ask.html

She is not presidential at all.
Very Clintonian.

dbs