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Old 10-01-2007, 09:43 PM   #151
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Originally posted by AEON


Yeah, I guess you're right. And the pilgrims were really Wiccans...


the pilgrims burned witches.

Jefferson owned slaves.

good christians, all.
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Old 10-01-2007, 09:45 PM   #152
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I guess by 'Creator' they were referring to Buddha's dream of the lotus leaf...the quotes give context to the official language of the founding documents.


but this is the point. this is the genius of secular humanism.

a Buddhist could read these documents and, yes, have precisely that interpretation.

Jesus doesn't give a Buddhist shit. his sense of freedom, his sense of dignity as a human being -- which is actually what these documents are getting at, that we are all, peasant and king, cosmically equal -- comes from a very different place. but the Christian and the Buddhist and the Muslim can all agree that, cosmically, one is not superior to the other.

(but would you agree with that?)

(and what if all those quotes were decidedly Catholic, had lots of Mary-worshipping stuff, would you be as eager to toss them as evidence that the FF's were standing in your corner?)
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Old 10-01-2007, 09:47 PM   #153
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I guess by 'Creator' they were referring to Buddha's dream of the lotus leaf...the quotes give context to the official language of the founding documents.
I am agnostic

but if I were an atheist I would have signed that document


it is a pretty good deal to get rights from a creator that no one can see or find

vs

A Monarch that will tax me and can take my property or imprison me at will.
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Old 10-01-2007, 09:53 PM   #154
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This is unfortunately very true...
why is it unfortunate?

child rape is a bad thing

and let's be honest

even in 1770's

any decent and God fearing person would have to conclude that slavery was an absolute abomination

sure one can rationalize any practice
if it serves their own selfish purposes

just look at the polygamists in UT/AZ

They are decent God fearing people, too.
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Old 10-01-2007, 09:57 PM   #155
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511




but this is the point. this is the genius of secular humanism.

a Buddhist could read these documents and, yes, have precisely that interpretation.

Jesus doesn't give a Buddhist shit. his sense of freedom, his sense of dignity as a human being -- which is actually what these documents are getting at, that we are all, peasant and king, cosmically equal -- comes from a very different place. but the Christian and the Buddhist and the Muslim can all agree that, cosmically, one is not superior to the other.

(but would you agree with that?)

(and what if all those quotes were decidedly Catholic, had lots of Mary-worshipping stuff, would you be as eager to toss them as evidence that the FF's were standing in your corner?)
Well, I do think that using the generic word Creator was wise decision. My issue was with the denial of the Christian influence. The Founding Documents were not written by Buddhists, Agnostic Secular Humanists, nor Catholics - but by White Protestant Anglo Saxon males (Oh no!).

These men had faults, the documents aren't perfect, and our nation is always a work in progress; but the United States was formed by White Protestant Anglo Saxon males whether we like it or not. However, I do think that writing in an inclusive, and not exclusive manner, extended the American dream to include those of all faiths, races, and genders.
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Old 10-01-2007, 09:59 PM   #156
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And it's blatantly obvious that we should recognize their mistakes here and remember the phrase "separation of church and state."
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Old 10-01-2007, 10:04 PM   #157
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However, I do think that writing in an inclusive, and not exclusive manner, extended the American dream to include those of all faiths, races, and genders.
I do agree the best thing was the ability to amend.

A good many of the founding fathers would hate what America is today.

And the fact that their handy work permitted it.


It may seem I am a harsh judge of these fine fellows.

I think it is just my swinging back hard on the white washing of history I believe I was brought up on.


How many of us really were taught that we almost never had to fight the Civil War?
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Old 10-01-2007, 10:04 PM   #158
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Originally posted by AEON
it wasn't like McCain went out on a limb and said something extreme. His quote is right in line with the quotes I posted from men like Washington, Adams, and Jefferson.
But he said it 200+ years later in a more diverse USA.

So yeah, it was a revealing thing to say.
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Old 10-01-2007, 10:06 PM   #159
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Originally posted by deep

A good many of the founding fathers would hate what America is today.

And the fact that their handy work permitted it.

Don't judge men of 200 years ago by modern standards. It can't and shouldn't be done. They were men of their time. No amount of revisionist history can make them modern men.
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Old 10-01-2007, 10:06 PM   #160
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But he said it 200+ years later in a more diverse USA.

So yeah, it was a revealing thing to say.
And then we get nitwits like Laura Ingraham saying that anyone who would disagree with him is trying to destory religion altogether.
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Old 10-01-2007, 10:07 PM   #161
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And then we get nitwits like Laura Ingraham saying that anyone who would disagree with him is trying to destory religion altogether.
Poor persecuted thing.
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Old 10-01-2007, 10:12 PM   #162
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Jews - need not apply.


Quote:
McCain "I just have to say in all candor that since this nation was founded primarily on Christian principles.... personally, I prefer someone who I know who has a solid grounding in my faith."
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Old 10-01-2007, 10:14 PM   #163
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Don't judge men of 200 years ago by modern standards. It can't and shouldn't be done. They were men of their time. No amount of revisionist history can make them modern men.
are you serious?
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Old 10-01-2007, 10:24 PM   #164
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Quote:
Originally posted by martha


That's not what he said though, is it.
So.
We know his intent.

Only a dishonest person would claim that John Mccain is an antiSemite.

And as far as Mr deep trying to dance around the word "judaeo" last time I checked the 10 commandments were from derived from Judaeo principles which many of our laws are founded on.

That said our country is founded on Judaeo-Christian principles, John McCain is not an antiSemite but you my brother are noting more than a gutter sniper in attempting to paint him as such.

dbs
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Old 10-01-2007, 10:25 PM   #165
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It's not that he dislikes Jews, he just made a statement that is insensitive to the diversity of religion in this country.
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