US 2008 Presidential Campaign Discussion Thread - Part 9

[BVS]

Biden has been making some big gaffes lately, not sure if it's fatigue or what...

But come on, let's admit there's a difference between the gaffe's that can be made by nervously saying blue instead of green and the gaffe's that actually change the context of meaning. The difference between one poorly stated sentiment to a record of very questionable sentiments.

There is a difference and we should really talk about those that matter, otherwise we'll have several pages of tit for tat...

 

[Tiger Edge]

Exactly.

Utoo, are you saying that if Sarah Palin or John McCain had said "In 1929, FDR went on the tv" that you and others in here wouldn't be all over it?

That's quite a leap from not knowing what the Bush Doctrine is. I'm not saying that it wasn't an idiotic statement, but I'm willing to guess that he just got his facts and figures wrong, and perhaps he needs a refresher course in early 20th century history.

Early 21st century history needs no refresher course. Specifically when you are in the running for the #2 spot, and your interviewer is asking you a question about the policy of the head of your country (and party) currently in office.

 

[Utoo]

Exactly.

Utoo, are you saying that if Sarah Palin or John McCain had said "In 1929, FDR went on the tv" that you and others in here wouldn't be all over it?

Yes.

Rather, we may point it out as you did, but we wouldn't suggest that it really matters at all (not that you did that). Nor would I claim that it had any potential as a headline if it were Palin who said it.

 

[anitram]

Look, nobody cares about what Biden has said because nobody is covering him. He's not even on TV, as if he doesn't exist.

The GOP would be better off worrying monumentally about pretty much every new poll than worrying about Joe Biden's differentiation of electrical appliances.

 

[deep]

That's quite a leap

I just got to call Bullshit here


I read the paper everyday, and the Bush Doctrine was not a widely used term.


If he had asked about "preemptive war" that would be different.

and as for Biden.

almost everyone knows the stock market crashed in 1929 on Hoover's watch,
and the depression was in full swing when FDR took office in 1933

there were hordes of homeless camped out in city parks and on public land

A Hooverville was the popular name for a shanty town built by homeless men in the depression years.

 

[Utoo]

A Bushville!

 

[deep]

I am not a religious man.

But if I believed in prayer

this is the outcome I would be praying for.

269 tie: An electoral college 'doomsday'?
Joseph Curl (Contact)

President Obama, with Vice President Palin? President Biden? President Pelosi? Call them the "Doomsday" scenarios -- On Nov. 5, the presidential election winds up in a electoral-college tie, 269-269, the Democrat-controlled House picks Sen. Barack Obama as president, but the Senate, with former Democrat Joe Lieberman voting with Republicans, deadlocks at 50-50, so Vice President Dick Cheney steps in to break the tie to make Republican Sarah Palin his successor.

"Wow," said longtime presidential historian Stephen Hess. "Wow, that would be amazing, wouldn't it?"

"If this scenario ever happened, it would be like a scene from the movie 'Scream' for Democrats," said Democratic strategist Mary Anne Marsh. "The only thing worse for the Democrats than losing the White House, again, when it had the best chance to win in a generation, but to do so at the hands of Cheney and Lieberman. That would be cruel."

Sound impossible? It's not. There are at least a half-dozen plausible ways the election can end in a tie, and at least one very plausible possibility - giving each candidate the states in which they now lead in the polls, only New Hampshire - which went Republican in 2000 and Democratic in 2004, each time by just 1.5 percent - needs to swap to the Republican column to wind up with a 269-269 tie.

There are currently 10 tossup states, according to RealClearPol-itics.com, which keeps a running average of all state polls. If Republican presidential nominee Sen. John McCain wins Ohio, Virginia, New Hampshire and Indiana - not at all far-fetched - and Mr. Obama takes reliably Democratic states Pennsylvania and Michigan, and flips Colorado (in which he holds a slight poll lead), with the two splitting New Mexico and Nevada, the electoral vote would be tied at 269.

Absurd? Possibly, and there is not complete agreement among constitutional experts on whether a newly elected Congress or the currently sitting House and Senate would make the decision.

So try this scenario: The newly elected House, seated in January, is unable to muster a majority to choose a president after a 269-269 tie, but the Senate, which is expected to be controlled by Democrats, picks Sen. Joseph R. Biden Jr. from the Democratic ticket. If the House is still deadlocked at noon on Inauguration Day, Jan. 20, Mr. Biden becomes acting president.

Or try this one on for size: Neither the House nor the Senate fulfills its constitutional duty to select the president and the vice president by Jan. 20, so House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, California Democrat, becomes acting president until the whole mess is sorted out.

"That would cause all kinds of lawsuits: We would have 50 Floridas, and we might not know who the president is for two years," said Judith Best, a political science and Electoral College specialist at the State University of New York in Cortland.

 

[Irvine511]

I just got to call Bullshit here


I read the paper everyday, and the Bush Doctrine was not a widely used term.

it was at the very heart of the debate surrounding the Iraq War in 2002/3.

unless you're arguing that it's unimportant that our VP apparently has so little interest in foreign policy that she doesn't even read the newspapers.

 

[anitram]

President Obama, with Vice President Palin?

I hope to never see this woman after November 5th.

She's DIM. In the words of Bill Maher, she's a Category 5 Moron. And go ahead call me an elitist, better that than revelling in being an idiot.

 

[Tiger Edge]

it was at the very heart of the debate surrounding the Iraq War in 2002/3.

unless you're arguing that it's unimportant that our VP apparently has so little interest in foreign policy that she doesn't even read the newspapers.

Well she's just following Bush's strategy of never picking up a newspaper.

 

[deep]

it was at the very heart of the debate surrounding the Iraq War in 2002/3.

unless you're arguing that it's unimportant that our VP apparently has so little interest in foreign policy that she doesn't even read the newspapers.

ok, heart surgeon

please show me where we referred to it as the Bush Doctrine on this board.

I participated in a lot of discussion here in 2002/2003 about this war and my opposition to it.

I can't even spell doctorine,

 

[anitram]

ok, heart surgeon

please show me where we referred to it as the Bush Doctrine on this board.

I participated in a lot of discussion here in 2002/2003 about this war and my opposition to it.

I can't even spell doctorine,

With all due respect, WE are not Governors who didn't even BLINK before stating boldly that we are READY to be vice president (and president by the same logic).

Since when is WIDE USAGE of a term a defence for people who specialize in a field? Should I state that because nobody here may be familiar with the parens patriae definition, I shouldn't either while accepting a position on SCOTUS?

Honestly deep, this is one of the dumber arguments I've heard here in a while.

 

[Irvine511]

ok, heart surgeon

please show me where we referred to it as the Bush Doctrine on this board.

I participated in a lot of discussion here in 2002/2003 about this war and my opposition to it.

I can't even spell doctorine,

firstly, i didn't become a regular poster until late 2004.

but as Yolland has pointed out, all the Republicans knew what it was in the Gibson moderated debate.

*everyone* knew that it was about preemptive war. it went along with Cheney's well known The One Percent Doctrine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

but perhaps it's elitist to know things.

 

[anitram]

but perhaps it's elitist to know things.

Yes it is.

We should want a president who revels in being mediocre, uninformed and profoundly uncurious.

 

[Irvine511]

Yes it is.

We should want a president who revels in being mediocre, uninformed and profoundly uncurious.

we should ask ourselves, "do i want my president to look something up in a book, or do i want him to find the answer deep in his gut."

the coastal elitist says books.

the authentic American says gut.

and this is what the Palin pick tells us about what John McCain thinks about the American people.

 

[Diemen]

"I don't trust books. All facts, no heart."

- Dr. Stephen T. Colbert, DFA

 

[deep]

firstly, i didn't become a regular poster until late 2004.

but as Yolland has pointed out, all the Republicans knew what it was in the Gibson moderated debate.

*everyone* knew that it was about preemptive war. it went along with Cheney's well known The One Percent Doctrine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

but perhaps it's elitist to know things.

If the question was Cheney's One per cent Doctrine
I would have know what that meant.

but the Bush Doctrine can mean different things,* so Palin's response was reasonable, wanting a clarification
and the moderator looked like an ass trying to play "gotcha"

* from wiki

The Bush Doctrine is a phrase used to describe various related foreign policy principles of United States president George W. Bush, created in the wake of the September 11, 2001 attacks. The phrase initially described the policy that the United States had the right to treat countries that harbor or give aid to terrorist groups as terrorists themselves, which was used to justify the invasion of Afghanistan

 

[Diemen]

but the Bush Doctrine can mean different things

and yet:

as Yolland has pointed out, all the Republicans knew what it was in the Gibson moderated debate.

 

[Utoo]

If the question was Cheney's One per cent Doctrine
I would have know what that meant.

but the Bush Doctrine can mean different things,* so Palin's response was reasonable, wanting a clarification
and the moderator looked like an ass trying to play "gotcha"

* from wiki

Here's the full quote:

The Bush Doctrine is a phrase used to describe various related foreign policy principles of United States president George W. Bush, created in the wake of the September 11, 2001 attacks. The phrase initially described the policy that the United States had the right to treat countries that harbor or give aid to terrorist groups as terrorists themselves, which was used to justify the invasion of Afghanistan.[1] Later it came to include additional elements, including the controversial policy of preventive war, which held that the United States should depose foreign regimes that represented a potential or perceived threat to the security of the United States, even if that threat was not immediate (used to justify the invasion of Iraq); a policy of supporting democracy around the world, especially in the Middle East, as a strategy for combating the spread of terrorism; and a willingness to pursue U.S. military interests in a unilateral way.[2][3][4] Some of these policies were codified in a National Security Council text entitled the National Security Strategy of the United States published on September 20, 2002.[5]

Indeed, it has morphed over time. But it has been a common term, central to the philosophy of this administration. Look at the references on that very same Wikipedia page to see----several newspaper articles, NYT editorials, magazine articles & books using the very term "Bush Doctrine."

More importantly--the meaning of the term has morphed to include all of its various aspects, not into a term that excludes its previous meanings.

Come on. Stop playing games. If one wants to run for the second highest office in the country, one should know the central tenets of the previous administration's philosophy, especially if it's your own party.

 

[Irvine511]

If one wants to run for the second highest office in the country, one should know the central tenets of the previous administration's philosophy, especially if it's your own party.

elitist.

 

[yolland]

"...his world view?" are not the words of someone seeking a clarification, they're the words of someone who simply doesn't recognize the phrase. If you want to give her credit simply for knowing the common stalling tactic of attempting to fish a partial answer out of the questioner when you don't know the answer ("In what respect?"), that's your prerogative.

 

[deep]

With all due respect, WE are not Governors who didn't even BLINK before stating boldly that we are READY to be vice president (and president by the same logic).

Since when is WIDE USAGE of a term a defence for people who specialize in a field? Should I state that because nobody here may be familiar with the parens patriae definition, I shouldn't either while accepting a position on SCOTUS?

Honestly deep, this is one of the dumber arguments I've heard here in a while.

they say "beauty is in the eye of the beholder"

well, this one just might be in the "bias of the reader"


with the respect that is warranted

Biden's flub on something that is taught to grade school children, that the depression began in 1929 on Hoover's watch, is much more of a gaff than wanting a clarification to a vague term from an interviewer.

 

[Irvine511]

Biden's flub on something that is taught to grade school children, that the depression began in 1929 on Hoover's watch, is much more of a gaff than wanting a clarification to a vague term from an interviewer.

i couldn't disagree more.

 

[anitram]

The McCain campaign gave in and agreed to let a CNN producer into the UN meetings.

The New York Times adds that reporters were let in for the preliminary part of Palin's meeting with Afghan President Hamid Karzai. Here's what they got:

When Gov. Sarah Palin sat down with President Hamid Karzai of Afghanistan on Tuesday afternoon, the polite preliminaries to their conversation centered around children, as Mr. Karzai spoke of the birth of his first child last year.

"What is his name?" Ms. Palin was heard to ask, as she met with Mr. Karzai in the suite of a midtown hotel, according to a pool report.

"Mirwais," Mr. Karzai replied. "Mirwais, which means, 'The Light of the House.'"

"Oh nice," Palin responded.

"He is the only one we have," Mr. Karzai said.

Then the pool of journalists was escorted out, and the meeting began.

The pool was allowed in for a whopping 29 seconds.

You couldn't write this if you tried.

CBS was sexist and disrespectful, daring to ask a question, so now they have to go sit in the corner:

Television networks, including CBS News maintain a policy that if they are prevented from having an editorial presence at an event, they will not allow cameras to shoot it.

The McCain/Palin campaign's effort to stifle editorial coverage of the candidate's meetings with world leaders comes a week after CBS News asked Palin an impromptu question about the AIG bailout, while Palin made an off-the-record stop at a Cleveland diner.

After the Cleveland event, a Palin staffer told CBS News that questions "weren't allowed."

In Orlando on Sunday, Palin had another off-the-record stop at an ice cream shop, but the pool producer who was assigned to be in Palin's motorcade was not notified when the candidate departed to get ice cream, and so there was no editorial presence at the event.

 

[Irvine511]

You couldn't write this if you tried.

you could. in Russia!

please, someone. defend this behavior. defense having a candidate that will not take questions from what is supposed to be a free press.

i have to know why this behavior isn't objectionable to you.

please. it's making me crazy.

 

[Vincent Vega]

In socialist Germany, under our dear leader Putin, we had to discuss the term "Bush Doctrine" in one of our exams in civics.


As yolland said, she didn't recognize the term as something with several meanings where she wanted clarification, she didn't recognize the term at all. It doesn't matter what terms you, or anyone else here, is familiar with or not, but what terms Palin is familar with; or not.

 

[deep]

Here's the full quote:



Indeed, it has morphed over time. But it has been a common term, central to the philosophy of this administration. Look at the references on that very same Wikipedia page to see----several newspaper articles, NYT editorials, magazine articles & books using the very term "Bush Doctrine."

More importantly--the meaning of the term has morphed to include all of its various aspects, not into a term that excludes its previous meanings.

Come on. Stop playing games. If one wants to run for the second highest office in the country, one should know the central tenets of the previous administration's philosophy, especially if it's your own party.

this is from your example


The Bush Doctrine is a phrase used to describe various related foreign policy principles of United States president George W. Bush, created in the wake of the September 11, 2001 attacks.

1. the United States had the right to treat countries that harbor or give aid to terrorist groups as terrorists themselves, which was used to justify the invasion of Afghanistan.

2. the policy of preventive war, which held that the United States should depose foreign regimes that represented a potential or perceived threat to the security of the United States, even if that threat was not immediate

3. a policy of supporting democracy around the world, especially in the Middle East, as a strategy for combating the spread of terrorism

4. a willingness to pursue U.S. military interests in a unilateral way.




So is everyone against all 4 of these aspects of The Bush Doctrine ?


Now that we have a definition?

I think I am did and would support at least 2 of the 4?

perhaps more under the right circumstances.

 

[Irvine511]

#2 was the most discussed in the news media in 2002/3. by far. that's what i would take the meaning of the Bush Doctrine to be, as would all the presidential candidates who have even a modest interest in foreign affairs.

remember the whole debate about a "grave and gathering danger" and "imminent threats" in regards to the WMD lies?

 

[deep]

it's making me crazy.

QFT

jk

 

[Dreadsox]

YouTube - Biden: Obama ad attacking McCain "Terrible"

Thank you Mr. Biden.