US 2008 Presidential Campaign Discussion Thread - Part 9

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based on what ?
His review of the long history of black presidential and vice-presidential candidates and how their pregnant teenagers' boyfriends were portrayed in the media? Is that the evidential standard you're looking for?
 
No, the author implied that if he were black than caricaturing him as a thug would "be considered."

Exactly.

based on what ?

Ah, deep, you're 50 years old and live in the US. We know you aren't so naive or unaware that you would believe what yolland wrote (quoted above) isn't accurate.
 
His review of the long history of black presidential and vice-presidential candidates and how their pregnant teenagers' boyfriends were portrayed in the media? Is that the evidential standard you're looking for?


I think the stats are something like 30-40 percent of all girls in the U S get pregnant before the age of 20.

Two high-school kids get pregnant and the families stand behind them,
they plan on getting married and the kids come from stable homes with support.

Why should anyone be implying they should be considered thugs
for something as trivial as a myspace posting?
If they were black with the same circumstances would anyone be labeling them?

I don't recall anyone exploiting the fact the Obama's mama was an unwed teenager like Bristol, when she conceived Obama.


and I don't think anyone gave Britney's little sister a pass because she was white.


Call me crazy, but I think Bristol's kid will have a typical up-bringing like many of us posting on this board.

I can't say the same for the Spears' kids,
I am hoping things do work out for them. Afterall, those Spears' babies are white.
 
Obama himself did cite that in Palin's defense and in protest of all the media coverage. But Obama's mother wasn't black, and in any case voters who tend to respond to the 'if-you-can't-manage-your-family-then-how-can-you-manage-the-country' schtick are more concerned with the 'sins' of the candidate's kids than with those of his or her parents.
Two high-school kids get pregnant and the families stand behind them,
they plan on getting married the kids come from sable homes with support.

I don't think anyone would be implying they should be considered thugs for something as trivial as a myspace posting.
Even if they were black.
And I disagree pretty strongly with you. Would the entire electorate buy into such suggestions--no, of course not. But take a look at the results of the poll MrsS posted yesterday: significant numbers of white people, who happen to comprise the majority of voters in this country, are more primed to perceive various moral weaknesses in black people than they are in white people, and this is one of them. Thus those kinds of insinuations have more staying power when aimed at black people--more ability to plant a seed of doubt and keep it alive in (swing) voters' minds.
and I don't think anyone gave Britney's little sister a pass because she was white.
Are Britney's parents on the presidential ticket?

When the 'Sarah Palin's high-school kid PREGNANT!!!!' story first broke, there were some blogs, and even more so reader comments, floating around out there sporting a noticeably ugly undertone of "Buncha white trash rednecks. Figures!" And doubtless there are still some muttering that to themselves. But white people are a majority in this country, so anyone trying to wield that stereotype isn't going to get very far when their target is 'respectable' people like those on a presidential ticket. Britney Spears and her family are in an altogether different category--hell yeah, let's titillate ourselves by first building her up into an impossible All-American Girl icon (why can't I be like that!), then enjoy tearing her apart when the inevitable downfall occurs (I knew all along she was just another redneck tramp!).
Call me crazy, but I think Bristol's kid will have a typical up-bringing like many of us posting on this board.
Quite possibly, and I never suggested otherwise, but that's beside the point.

And assuming they're 'doing all the right things' by getting married and raising the kid themselves is just as unwarranted (yet politically convenient) as assuming 'this is where a lack of comprehensive sex ed gets you.' Unless you personally know the teenagers in question, you're not in a position to know whether this is likely the best thing for them and their baby or not.
 
Not the same. The top the ticket gets multiple appearances with each other. The VPs get one---and they're cutting that one off at the knees.

Since Barack Obama is the "Change Candidate", I thought he wouldn't mind mixing things up a bit.:wink:



As for the town hall crap, the guy turned down 10 town halls, in which you get to say the same things over and over 10 times, for 3 debates--saying the same things over and over only three times. Moreover, can you imagine how much crap would have to go into planning 10 town halls?

The whole point of a town hall meeting is for it to be random, no script at all, talk about anything. McCain does not mind doing that, but Obama has a problem with it for some reason.


Which cities/towns do you have them in---yours, ours, ones that are 2/3 yours, etc.? Who gets tickets--yours, ours, third-party distribution with who knows what kind of bias? Who gets to ask questions?

Keep it random. Sometimes it might be a McCain crowd, sometimes it might be an Obama crowd, sometimes it might be a mix.

How do you ensure that an event like that, with two distinct parties on stage and in the crowd, doesn't turn into a shouting match between sides?

The whole point of the town hall meeting is to take questions from anyone and discuss anything that is on anyones mind. Its the opposite of the traditional campaign where both sides attempt to control all the factors.

Most important of all----Why should Obama do this just because McCain wants him to? Why submit yourself to an arena that your opponent has practiced in for years? It's like Obama asking McCain to have a speech-off. Have an applause-o-meter and see which speech the people like best.

It was just an idea to do something different. I'm surprised to see the "change candidate" stick to tradition on this one.
 
Obama agreed to the 3 debates, which has been the standard for quite some time. In fact, I do think that Clinton debated Dole maybe only twice.

But isn't Obama the "CHANGE" candidate? I thought he would jump at the idea.



10 town halls is completely UNPRECEDENTED and McCain wanted to do it because he knew he'd get free publicity which he needs given the fact that everybody thinks he's a boring 200-year-old turd blossom and nobody wants to actually listen to him live, nevermind that he can't compete with respect to fundraising.

If everyone thinks that McCain is a "boring 200 year old turd blossom and nobody wants to actually listen to him live", then 10 town halls should benefit Obama.


Obama does not need to bend over when McCain demands something that's never been done before, that benefits only him and then on top of it say "thank you, can I have some more?"

I thought the candidate of "Change" would be interested in doing something that has never been done before.
 
The whole point of the town hall meeting is to take questions from anyone and discuss anything that is on anyones mind. Its the opposite of the traditional campaign where both sides attempt to control all the factors.


McCain's arrogant dismissal of Ron Paul's points during the Republican candidates' debate prove that he has no real interest in listening to alternative points of view - even from within his own party.
 
McCain's arrogant dismissal of Ron Paul's points during the Republican candidates' debate prove that he has no real interest in listening to alternative points of view - even from within his own party.


Once Ron Paul realizes that the year is 2008 and not 1808, I'm sure McCain will be more willing to listen.
 
Once Ron Paul realizes that the year is 2008 and not 1808, I'm sure McCain will be more willing to listen.

Ron Paul, as a true conservative, realises that tried and tested mechanisms for organising peaceful, successful societies should not be thrown aside for the sake of mere temporary trends towards neo-conservatism, socialism, interventionism and all the other accursed -isms.
 
Gotta spread this stuff around so that folks don't buy into the crap. CNN's jumping in on the "check" stuff:

Fact Check: Did Obama vote 94 times for higher taxes?
Posted: 05:30 PM ET

From CNN's Josh Levs
Did Obama vote to raise taxes more than 90 times?
Did Obama vote to raise taxes more than 90 times?

The statement:

"He said he won't raise taxes for most people, but he's voted 94 times in his short Senate career for tax increases and against tax cuts."
-Sen. John McCain, at a campaign stop in Green Bay, Wisconsin, Friday Sept. 19, 2008

Check out the facts after the jump!



The facts:
The effort to convince voters that Sen. Barack Obama would support higher taxes is a central part of Sen. John McCain's presidential campaign. McCain and the Republican National Committee have repeatedly cited 94 alleged votes by Obama to bolster their argument.

Factcheck.org, a non-partisan project of the University of Pennsylvania's Annenberg Public Policy Center, pieced through records to determine just what these 94 votes were. Key findings:

-23 were against proposed tax cuts
-7 were "for measures that would have lowered taxes for many, while raising them on a relative few, either corporations or affluent individuals"
-11 were to increase taxes on people making more than $1 million a year, to help fund programs such as Head Start, school nutrition, or veterans' health care
-53 were votes on budget resolutions or amendments that "could not have resulted by themselves in raising taxes," though many "were clear statements of approval for increased taxes"
- The total includes multiple votes on the same measures

Annenberg says a close look at the record reveals that Obama has "voted consistently to restore higher tax rates on upper-income taxpayers but not on middle- or low-income workers."

Verdict:
Misleading. McCain's summary ignores the fact that some of the votes were for measures to lower taxes for many Americans, while increasing them for a much smaller number of taxpayers. A nonpartisan examination also finds that the 94 total includes multiple votes on the same measures and budget votes that would not directly lead to higher taxes.
 
Levi referred to himself as a "fucking redneck" in his Facebook profile.
Yeah, I know that, but he's a teenage boy of prime macho-posturing age, and I'm pretty sure Tim Wise recognizes that too. My point (to deep) was that Wise was suggesting that a black teenage father saying comparable things wouldn't get as much of a 'boys-will-be-boys' pass from the public, as Levi Johnston did. I don't think Wise, himself, was suggesting that Johnston SHOULD be deemed a thug.
 
Yeah, I know that, but he's a teenage boy of prime macho-posturing age, and I'm pretty sure Tim Wise recognizes that too. My point (to deep) was that Wise was suggesting that a black teenage father saying comparable things wouldn't get as much of a 'boys-will-be-boys' pass from the public, as Levi Johnston did. I don't think Wise, himself, was suggesting that Johnston SHOULD be deemed a thug.



ah, yes, this was precisely what i was thinking -- i might have read too quickly.
 
some really fascinating research/insight from what i swear is the best electoral website out there, FiveThirtyEight.com: Electoral Projections Done Right

Allocating the Undecideds

Heretofore, I've simply been allocating undecided voters 50:50. That is certainly the most neutral assumption to make. But this site isn't about making the most neutral assumption, it's about making the most predictive one.

So what I'm going to do instead is tie the undecided allocation to the extent to which Barack Obama overperformed or underperformed his polls in particular types of states in the Democratic primaries. If you compare the actual results in the primaries to the final RCP or Pollster.com averages, you'll notice some fairly systematic differences.

Specifically, Obama overperformed:

1. In states with high African-American populations;
2. In states that share a border with Illinois (no, Kentucky doesn't count);
3. In states with highly educated electorates;
4. To a lesser extent, in the South (as indicated by the number of evangelicals), even after accounting for the above variables.

Meanwhile, he underperformed his polls:

1. In the Appalachian states (as indicated by the number of respondents who identify their ancestry as 'American', a practice concentrated in the Appalachian region);
2. In states with low education levels;
3. And in states with a high number of Catholics.

This can all be ferreted out via regression analysis, taking the factors I describe above as the independent variables, and Obama's performance vis-?-vis his polls as the dependent variable. The R-squared on this regression is .72, which is quite high -- it means that it was rather predictable when the polls were wrong, and in which direction.

To get a little ahead of myself: does this mean that there was in fact a Bradley Effect during the primaries? It's not clear. What is actually quite clear -- and I'm going to present some research on this over the next several days -- is that the polls did a rather poor job of accounting for the black vote. Not only did essentially every "undecided" African-American voter wind up voting for Obama, but some of those who told pollsters they were going to vote for Hillary also wound up voting for Obama. The reverse Bradley Effect, in other words, was fairly manifest.

It's also clear that there were some patterns in the way that undecided white voters behaved. Number one, a majority of them -- probably somewhere between 60 and 65 percent -- wound up voting for Clinton. This is perhaps not so remarkable, considering that about 60 percent of white voters in the primaries voted for Clinton period. But, this figure was higher in regions like the Appalachians, and among groups like Catholics, and lower in places where you had a lot of WASPy, educated voters. So whether or not you label this a Bradley Effect, I don't know -- but the behavior of undecided voters has been predictable to a certain extent.

Now, it does not necessarily follow that the patterns exhibited by undecided voters in the primaries will match those in the general election. But based both on my research and on what I've been hearing from people on the ground, it's apparent that the public polling in general is not terrific, and that if we have an instinct about where the polls are more likely to come in high or low, we probably ought to follow it.

So what I've done is to transform the results of the regression analysis that I described above into an undecided voter allocation for each state. The allocation is "rigged" such that neither candidate will gain or lose ground in the national popular vote as a result, and such that the range of allocations runs from about .35 to .65. That is, in some states we'll allocate as much as 65% of the undecided vote to John McCain (and just 35% to Barack Obama) and in others we'll allocate as much as 65% to Obama (and just 35% to McCain).

The specific allocations follow. Remember, these are based on the extent to which Obama over- or underperformed his polls in various states during the primaries:

Percent of Undecided Votes Allocated to Barack Obama
DC 64.4%
MS 64.4%
GA 63.0%
MD 61.5%
SC 61.1%
AL 60.9%
NC 58.0%
VA 57.8%
IN 57.8%
IA 56.9%
AR 56.8%
OK 56.5%
WI 56.5%
DE 53.7%
AK 53.4%
WA 52.7%
FL 52.4%
TN 52.3%
CO 51.8%
MO 51.6%
MI 51.5%
KS 51.4%
OR 51.0%
LA 50.7%
UT 50.6%
HI 50.5%
MN 50.2%
NE 49.8%
TX 48.3%
IL 48.3%
MT 48.0%
OH 47.2%
NV 46.7%
WY 46.6%
SD 46.4%
AZ 46.0%
ND 45.5%
ID 45.4%
NJ 45.0%
PA 44.8%
CT 44.6%
NY 44.6%
VT 43.7%
KY 43.4%
CA 42.9%
ME 42.6%
NH 42.2%
MA 41.0%
NM 40.0%
WV 38.6%
RI 35.0%

At this point in the election, the number of undecideds is fairly low: generally between 4 and 6 points in each state, once we've gotten done assigning a point or two to third party candidates. As such, these allocations do not make a great deal of difference -- at the most, a swing of maybe a point or a point-and-a-half.

Still, you can see some impacts at the margins. Take a state like West Virginia, where the polling has been reasonably close but where there are also high numbers of undecided voters. Those undecideds aren't the type of undecideds who are liable to side with Barack Obama when pushed to a decision, and so the state is not quite as promising for him as it looks on paper. There are also a fairly high number of undecideds in Ohio, a state where we think the undecided vote is liable to break slightly for John McCain. On the other hand, a state like Virginia, where Obama overperformed his polls during the primaries and where some polling has had a relatively generous (and probably false) number of African-American votes going to John McCain, might be just a smidgen stronger for Obama than it appears.
 
Here are realclearpolitics predictions for the 2004 election:

Electoral College:

RealClear Politics - Polls

Just off by one state Wisconsin which actually went Blue, but was very very close to going Red.


If the 2008 election were held today, this how realclearpolitics projects things would turn out in the electoral college:

RealClearPolitics - Electoral Map

Very close, could go either way.
 
Looking at that map

if McCain picked up NH we would have a tie 269-269


or

if he picked up either CO or NM
McCain wins.



I really hope one candidate wins with around 5 % over the other candidate
and around 300 electoral college votes.
 
keep your eye on NC.

it's changed dramatically over the past 8 years, much like VA.

McCain is now moving resources there, suggesting that it's in play.
 
keep your eye on NC.

it's changed dramatically over the past 8 years, much like VA.

McCain is now moving resources there, suggesting that it's in play.

there may be movement
but is it really in play?


E. Dole race is tightening up a bit

McCain is using RNC money, so not surprising it is going to NC
 
there may be movement
but is it really in play?


E. Dole race is tightening up a bit

McCain is using RNC money, so not surprising it is going to NC



:shrug:

we'll see. from FirstRead:


*** Three states to watch: But we have our eyes on three “Lean” states that we could move back to the Toss-up column. The first is Pennsylvania, where a new TODAY Show/NBC/Mason-Dixon poll shows Obama with a two-point advantage, 46%-44%. And the other two are Florida and North Carolina, where polls show Obama closing in on McCain. For now, because all three states show the same leader in polls that we trust, we're leaving them in their lean status. But do note that many a Democrat believes North Carolina is a state where the electorate really may have changed. It's a fascinating state this cycle, actually -- not a single white male Democrat is in the top three races on the state's ballot.
 
I will go on the record and say I expect Obama to win PA

and McCain to win FL and NC

( and this is based on just way too much information I have been ingesting over many years form too many sources to cite )

of course in a three contest prediction - the odds should be against me hitting a tri-fecta
 
Exclusive: McCain closes huge gap on key question for women

David Paul Kuhn
Mon Sep 22, 6:15 AM ET



Since picking Sarah Palin as his running mate, John McCain has obliterated what had been a 34-percentage-point deficit in a poll of likely women voters on the question of which candidate has a “better understanding of women and what is important” to them.

The two are now effectively tied, with McCain's 44 to 42 percentage lead within the margin of error of the most recent poll conducted by pollsters Kellyanne Conway and Celinda Lake for Lifetime Television. In Lifetime's July poll, women preferred Barack Obama on the same question by nearly three-to-one— 52 to 18 percent.

In this latest poll, conducted Sept. 11-15, age remained a key determinant in response to the question about women’s concerns. Young women, ages 18-34, chose the Obama/Biden ticket as more empathetic to their needs, while women aged 35-64 went for McCain/Palin. Unlike black and Hispanic women, White women saw McCain and Palin as most understanding of their concerns.

About one in four women who supported Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton in the primaries now said McCain and Palin have a better grasp of women’s needs than Obama and his running mate, Sen. Joe Biden.

The Lifetime poll reveals a diversity of women’s views on several issues, with many of those differences related to a respondent’s race, party identity, marital status and generation.

However, those demographic differences faded when it came to the Democrats’ strongest showing in the poll, on a question regarding the economy. The women polled favored the Obama/Biden ticket 57 to 32 percent on which candidate “will help middle class families the most.” Polling has shown all year that the economy tops voters' concerns.

The survey comes as women overall favor the Democratic ticket, 48 to 44 percent, according to the weekly summaries of Gallup polling. That marks a wider margin than Democrats enjoyed in 2004 on Election Day, but less than in 2000.

That Democratic drop-off with women since 2000, Gallup polling shows, is tied to Obama’s recent downtick in white support among women and men alike. All summer Obama had roughly similar support among white women as Al Gore did in 2000.

Gallup finds McCain now leads with white women 51 to 40 percent, a wider gap than the GOP enjoyed among white women eight years ago.

However, it appears that Obama’s message of “change” has struck a chord with women, who in the Lifetime poll gave the Obama/Biden ticket a 14-point advantage on the question, 51 to 37 percent over the McCain/Palin ticket.

Overall, women said Obama and Biden would best “reform the way Washington, D.C. does business” by 47 to 40 percent. But white women narrowly favored the McCain/Palin ticket on that count.

And, independent women gave the GOP ticket an 8-point advantage on the change issue.

When women were asked which ticket could better “win” the war in Iraq, white, Hispanic and independent women, as well as women of every age group, voiced more confidence in McCain/Palin.

But when these women were asked which candidates can most likely “end” the war in Iraq, Obama/Biden earned significantly more support. Women under age 55, Hispanic women, and independent women had more trust in the Democrats. Yet white women voiced more confidence in McCain/Palin to end the war.

Women overall did say the Republican ticket was more ready to lead, though Latinas and black women sided with Democrats. Democrats have a narrow advantage overall, 47 to 40 percent, as more capable reformers of government, though female independents and whites sided with the GOP.

The Lifetime Television/Every Woman Counts campaign poll of 534 American women likely to vote was conducted September 11 to 15, and has a margin of error of 4.4 percent.

Exclusive: McCain closes huge gap on key question for women - Yahoo! News

McCain already has the male vote locked up.
 
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