US 2008 Presidential Campaign Discussion Thread - Part 9

[deep]

#2 was the most discussed in the news media in 2002/3. by far. that's what i would take the meaning of the Bush Doctrine to be, as would all the presidential candidates who have even a modest interest in foreign affairs.

remember the whole debate about a "grave and gathering danger" and "imminent threats" in regards to the WMD lies?

so did you do a search in FYM and archives
perhaps you were not here,
but many were, and we have always cut and pasted articles from newspapers and magazines, actually this place used to move a lot faster, with more posters and replies.


no mention of "Bush Doctrine"

lots of preemptive war.



some "one percent doctrine"

but no Bush Doctrine ?

and there are plenty of posts attacking Bush policy.

 

[anitram]

How did all the Republican candidates know what it meant in their debate?

 

[deep]

Thank you Mr. Biden.

Yes, Biden is a decent person.

and his flub on FDR and the depression is not a big deal.


I think he probably meant to say FDR spoke to the American people with his "Fireside chats" on the radio. (That was the medium in the 1930s. ) That he would reassure the people that were having hard times during the Great Depression that happened in the 1930s.

 

[Vincent Vega]

Oh my God, he's right. If it wasn't discussed in FYM, the term never can have been important! It's so obvious.

 

[yolland]

Biden has always been notorious for foot-in-mouth moments, I certainly wouldn't defend him against that much.

 

[deep]

How did all the Republican candidates know what it meant in their debate?

I'd have to watch the whole debate in context, to give a good answer.

After the first guy gets it, the rest do not need clarification.

 

[yolland]

Again, no one who falls back on "...his world view?" when the questioner refuses to hand them a partial answer, understands at all what the phrase refers to.

 

[Harry Vest]

If the question was Cheney's One per cent Doctrine
I would have know what that meant.

but the Bush Doctrine can mean different things,* so Palin's response was reasonable, wanting a clarification
and the moderator looked like an ass trying to play "gotcha"

* from wiki

EXACTLY. Will everyone please stop with this whole "Bush Doctrine" nonsense. Nobody cares if she knew what it was because they themselves (the voters that matter to McCain/Palin) don't know either. It just adds so much fuel to the anti-media fire that the McCain campaign is currently milking to their benefit. So enough already. This kind of intellectual snobbery is just helping them!!!

 

[yolland]

Kind of like how all that screeching about BILLARY THE TWO-HEADED MONSTER!!!!! only further alienated Hillary supporters whose votes Obama badly needs?

But it doesn't matter, because this ain't the MSM, and the general public doesn't know or give a shit what anyone in FYM says.

 

[Lila64]

From Andrew Sullivan
The Daily Dish | By Andrew Sullivan


The final two paragraphs from George Will's column today are worth highlighting again

Conservatives who insist that electing McCain is crucial usually start, and increasingly end, by saying he would make excellent judicial selections. But the more one sees of his impulsive, intensely personal reactions to people and events, the less confidence one has that he would select judges by calm reflection and clear principles, having neither patience nor aptitude for either.

It is arguable that, because of his inexperience, Obama is not ready for the presidency. It is arguable that McCain, because of his boiling moralism and bottomless reservoir of certitudes, is not suited to the presidency. Unreadiness can be corrected, although perhaps at great cost, by experience. Can a dismaying temperament be fixed?

We forget that McCain has no executive experience, just as Obama has no executive experience. But in terms of judgment, of selection of a running mate, of calm in crisis, of a smooth operation, it is McCain who is revealing his total inexperience and unreadiness for the job, not Obama. In fact, there is no comparison. ]One campaign is chaotic, secretive, impulsive, unpredictable and losing. The other is supremely well-run, as transparent as a campaign can be, unflappable, very predictable, and winning. I know which man I'd prefer to be runing the country in a crisis. Not hotheaded, mercurial, impulsive, gambling McCain.

 

[Dreadsox]

Kind of like how all that screeching about BILLARY THE TWO-HEADED MONSTER!!!!! only further alienated Hillary supporters whose votes Obama badly needs?

But it doesn't matter, because this ain't the MSM, and the general public doesn't know or give a shit what anyone in FYM says.

If FYM is a mirror of society....it reflects real world back at us.

 

[Dreadsox]

I think you miss Mr. Will's point as he writes to the conservatives. McCain, the maverick, cannot be counted upon to always toe the line and run with them.

Will would not like this, and is most definitely correct. Now that he has the nomination, he does not have to completely sing their song.

 

[yolland]

If FYM is a mirror of society....it reflects real world back at us.

Oh, I completely agree.

 

[Dreadsox]

So then it does matter the things that are posted here.

 

[yolland]

Not in the way Harry was suggesting, no. Posting and squabbling over gaffes is uninteresting and unenlightening, yes. Of course, in Palin's case, if she were doing more interviews and taking questions from the press, there might be more there to debate (not that that means it would happen).

 

[Vincent Vega]

The US Presidential election 2008 will be decided by the discussions in FYM. That would be great.

We could now stop discussing these non-issues here in FYM. Sadly, it doesn't seem the same discussions would stop in the public.
In my opinion, the current situation of political discourse is a product of shifts in politics itself and in shifts in the media, i.e. 24h news programs that normally would only have material for two hours since foreign issues don't matter anyways.

 

[yolland]

And political campaigns, especially presidential ones, increasingly becoming marketing campaigns, based on shaping perceptions and peddling consumer-friendly images.

 

[Earnie Shavers]

I reckon a combination of the 24hr news + the length of it all.

I can’t believe how little media scrutiny your politicians get in general. I think it’s amazing that they can go hours, let alone days, let alone weeks, without having to answer spontaneous, direct questions, either as candidates or eventually as elected officials. In Australia, the Prime Minister gets hammered daily by the media, potentially several times a day. On top of that, like the British, we have parliamentary question time as well. It’s more staged and not as worthwhile as it sounds, but still, it is again a daily, very public questioning that all elected officials are subjected to. I truly find it staggering and I think you’d start electing quite different people. The clever soundbite for the 6pm news still rules, but you have to face up to so much more. Imagine if George Bush was having to answer to journalists a few times a day, every day, asking completely spontaneous questions from both favourable and hostile journalists, never able to avoid them, plus challenges from Democrats in the open, on national TV, regularly.

 

[Diemen]

I reckon a combination of the 24hr news + the length of it all.

I can’t believe how little media scrutiny your politicians get in general. I think it’s amazing that they can go hours, let alone days, let alone weeks, without having to answer spontaneous, direct questions, either as candidates or eventually as elected officials. In Australia, the Prime Minister gets hammered daily by the media, potentially several times a day. On top of that, like the British, we have parliamentary question time as well. It’s more staged and not as worthwhile as it sounds, but still, it is again a daily, very public questioning that all elected officials are subjected to. I truly find it staggering and I think you’d start electing quite different people. The clever soundbite for the 6pm news still rules, but you have to face up to so much more. Imagine if George Bush was having to answer to journalists a few times a day, every day, asking completely spontaneous questions from both favourable and hostile journalists, never able to avoid them, plus challenges from Democrats in the open, on national TV, regularly.

I've long wanted just such a change to our media/politician relationship in the US. Unfortunately I don't see it happening without a major overhaul of both the political atmosphere and the media attitude towards reporting. Overhaul may be too polite.

It would be nice to see politicians get used to actually answering (or at least trying to answer) tough questions on a regular basis.

 

[indra]

Kind of like how all that screeching about BILLARY THE TWO-HEADED MONSTER!!!!! only further alienated Hillary supporters whose votes Obama badly needs?

I think I love you.

 

[Harry Vest]

Kind of like how all that screeching about BILLARY THE TWO-HEADED MONSTER!!!!! only further alienated Hillary supporters whose votes Obama badly needs?

But it doesn't matter, because this ain't the MSM, and the general public doesn't know or give a shit what anyone in FYM says.

Kind of.

FYM is simply a small reflection of what is already being said in the mainstream media. Duh. The whole "Bush Doctrine" and "Bridge to Nowhere" nonsense are distractions. I'm betting not a heck of alot of average undecideds give two shits about either of these "issues" so I wish the media would just shut the hell up and explore other issues.

P.S. Have you Hillary fans noticed how she seems to have literally disappeared in the past couple of weeks and how Bill keeps giving Sarah Palin compliments on the talk shows??? The bitterness of Billary??????

 

[phillyfan26]

Duh.

.

 

[deep]

It would be nice to see politicians get used to actually answering (or at least trying to answer) tough questions on a regular basis.

It might be nice if we had a President that would go down to the well in Congress and take questions from the Congress once a week

like the PM does in Britain.

that way the President and Congress could both make their case before the American people and perhaps find some common ground.

 

[deep]

P.S. Have you Hillary fans noticed how she seems to have literally disappeared in the past couple of weeks and how Bill keeps giving Sarah Palin compliments on the talk shows??? The bitterness of Billary??????

She was on CBS early show this morning praising Obama.

wcbstv.com - Sen. Clinton: 'No Doubt' Obama Will Win

 

[yolland]

I'm betting not a heck of alot of average undecideds give two shits about either of these "issues" so I wish the media would just shut the hell up and explore other issues.

Whaddya know, we agree. Good luck expecting the media to change though, especially so long as VP Nom Palin's public statements record remains so thin.

Try not watching TV or reading political blogs, works wonders for me.

P.S. Have you Hillary fans noticed how she seems to have literally disappeared in the past couple of weeks and how Bill keeps giving Sarah Palin compliments on the talk shows??? The bitterness of Billary??????

I'm not and never have been a Hillary fan, if you had me in mind.

Pathbreaking-female-candidate-who-lost sounding off on pathbreaking-female-candidate-who-won-was-appointed would make for an uncomfortable and probably inherently exploitative spectacle, so I'm not expecting to hear much from her, really.

 

[Vincent Vega]

As long as ratings are stable the media won't care to change.

 

[maycocksean]

Naturally, liberals think the only gaffes that mean something are the ones their opponents make.

Not like conservatives who understand that gaffes are meaningless no matter who makes them.

Or is that they understand gaffes are an important indicator of a person's fitness for office regardless of the party affiliation of the person who makes gaffe?

Perhaps you could clarify which of these two is the reasonable point of view held exclusively by conservatives?

 

[maycocksean]

I'm actually gonna side with deep on this one. . .at least to the extent that I think the issue of Palin not knowing what the Bush Doctrine is, is a bit overblown. And I think Biden's misstatement of historical facts is pretty glaring.

But in truth, I don't think either one of these things are that big a deal really. There are many reasons besides Palin's lack of knowledge of the Bush Doctrine to consider her an unwise choice for the Vice Presidency. And there are many reasons why Biden would make a good vice president despite his lack of knowledge of the historical facts of the Great Depression.

 

[deep]

Boy Suspended for Wearing Anti-Obama T-Shirt to School
Last Edited: Tuesday, 23 Sep 2008

AURORA, Colorado -- An elementary school student in suburban Denver was suspended for wearing a T-shirt critical of Barack Obama.

The school in Aurora, Colorado had encouraged students to dress patriotically.

Fifth grader Daxx Dalton created something to wear by writing "Obama A Terrorist's Best Friend" on a white shirt.

But school officials told Dalton he couldn't wear the shirt.

He was given the choice of changing, turning the shirt inside out or being suspended. He chose suspension.

"They're taking my right of freedom of speech," he said. "If I have the right to wear this shirt, I'm going to use it and if the only way to use it is to get suspended then I'm going to get suspended."

Dan Dalton supports his son's decision.

"He was suspended simply because he refused to give up his First Amendment rights," he said.

The school district wouldn't comment specifically on Daxx's situation but released a statement that said in part "we respect students' rights to free speech such as the right to wear specific clothing."

School officials said they also review any situation that might disrupt the learning environment.

Daxx said he will wear the shirt again on election day.

His father said he may take the school district to court over the issue.

A shame that kids don't even have the right to free speech any more. (one way to look at this)


But the truth?

this kid is being brought up in a very unhealthy environment.

I hope he makes it to adulthood and gains the ability to think for himself.

 

[mobvok]

A shame that kids don't even have the right to free speech any more. (one way to look at this)


But the truth?

this kid is being brought up in a very unhealthy environment.

I hope he makes it to adulthood and gains the ability to think for himself.

Kids being required to cede basic rights to the school isn't new. I think in loco parentis or some latin would make me sound more educated, if only I knew what it meant.

I do remember the "Bong Hits 4 Jesus" SCOTUS case, and I disagreed with the ruling primarily because the banner wasn't on school property. But on school grounds I'm pretty sure they've always had the right to dictate dress code.