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Old 09-30-2008, 11:56 AM   #706
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Obama's moral equivalency with Russia and the U.S. regarding Georgia adds fuel to the fire. No wonder Russia wants to give nuclear power to Venezuela. The U.S. is showing weakness in their eyes. Some in the left may have good intentions but it's not helping. Even inviting Ahmadinejad to universities gives him more clout. Terrorists openly express hope for left wing successes in elections like in Spain, even if it requires bombs to nudge the population. There are terrorists that use Democratic party talking points. I hope that Barack will move to the right if he gets in power and stops looking to be popular around the world. In some countries it's not good to be popular.

Let's be honest the left want to increase social programs. Why say you are not of that point of view when the prescriptions by the democratic party are the same as what socialists would recommend? If we elect left wing parties won't they propose more government intervention in the economy? If we keep electing them won't there be more?
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Old 09-30-2008, 11:58 AM   #707
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You must be thinking of Khadr. Arar wasn't on the battlefield. He was talking to a suspect Abdullah Almalki and he became a "person of interest". RCMP information was sent to the U.S. wrongly and the U.S. acted on it. Though talking to Almalki is suspect in of itself they didn't have any direct evidence of collaboration that I know of. He wasn't armed and attacking soldiers.

Khadr was caught on the battlefield and Canadians wanted him to come back because he was technically a citizen and most importantly in their eyes underage. Canadians have less harsh sentencing of youth criminals and they didn't want him tried in the U.S.
Oh, and Arar was sent to Syria where he was tortured for months on end. Let's make sure people remember that little detail.

And with relation to Khadr, very complex issue. Totally different from Arar. When I mentioned Arar, I meant Arar. He was tortured for no reason, well no good or right reason (those reasons could only come from you). Why did the US send him to Syria? So they could toture him at arms length. This is disgusting, and for you to defend torture as a means to get information is equally so.
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Old 09-30-2008, 12:08 PM   #708
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Obama's moral equivalency with Russia and the U.S. regarding Georgia adds fuel to the fire. No wonder Russia wants to give nuclear power to Venezuela. The U.S. is showing weakness in their eyes. Some in the left may have good intentions but it's not helping. Even inviting Ahmadinejad to universities gives him more clout. Terrorists openly express hope for left wing successes in elections like in Spain, even if it requires bombs to nudge the population. There are terrorists that use Democratic party talking points. I hope that Barack will move to the right if he gets in power and stops looking to be popular around the world. In some countries it's not good to be popular.

Let's be honest the left want to increase social programs. Why say you are not of that point of view when the prescriptions by the democratic party are the same as what socialists would recommend? If we elect left wing parties won't they propose more government intervention in the economy? If we keep electing them won't there be more?
Where did you study political science? From the community college of Limbaugh or is this something you read off a Council for National Policy pamphlet?
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Old 09-30-2008, 12:12 PM   #709
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Where did you study political science? From the community college of Limbaugh or is this something you read off a Council for National Policy pamphlet?

University of Calgary. Alum: Stephen Harper

A good Harper quote:

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In 1997, Harper delivered a controversial speech on Canadian identity to the Council for National Policy, a conservative American think tank. He made comments such as "Canada is a Northern European welfare state in the worst sense of the term, and very proud of it", "if you're like all Americans, you know almost nothing except for your own country. Which makes you probably knowledgeable about one more country than most Canadians"
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Old 09-30-2008, 12:16 PM   #710
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You're clearly missing my sarcasm.

My point is that your torture arguments don't hold true with Maher Arar at all, but you keep pushing them nonetheless.

Next time you talk to the wrong person but do nothing wrong, why not torture you for a year or so and then we'll see if you change your mind.
Arar's case isn't completely in the open. I know he wants to sue Ashcroft but the U.S. is holding information secret because they don't want the enemy to know how they find terrorists. We don't know the entire story. The government is going to take his word for it.

I get your sarcasm. You think these situations show that torture doesn't give enough evidence. Sometimes it does and it's certainly difficult because the U.S. can't respond to all questions, for national security reasons, and then they get criticised more. What I'm saying is that most of Guantanamo prisoners aren't that innocent due to the fact they were caught in action and letting them go creates a danger for soldiers. Being on the battlefield also means they are likely to have some information about what the terrorists and insurgents are doing compared to what Arar would know.

The U.S. will be unpopular around the world simply because they are a super power. Torture or no. You won't be able to appease the rest of the world without ignoring your own national security.
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Old 09-30-2008, 12:20 PM   #711
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What I'm saying is that most of Guantanamo prisoners aren't that innocent due to the fact they were caught in action and letting them go creates a danger for soldiers. Being on the battlefield also means they are likely to have some information about what the terrorists and insurgents are doing compared to what Arar would know.


so what do we do with these people? keep them in a legal netherworld where they have no rights, are subjected to "enhanced interrogation techniques," for what's been 6 years at this point, and then ... what, exactly?
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Old 09-30-2008, 12:23 PM   #712
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There's no delusion here. Just look at Dion, May, Layton and their platforms. Their spending would put Canada into a deficit. This social spending is socialism. The government runs 40% of the GDP of Canada and they want MORE. That's not delusion.
Wow. Chretien slashed spending and provincial transfer payments, and eliminated the huge deficit left over from the Conservative government, and then ran five consecutive budget surpluses, while implementing tax cuts.

But he was a socialist, right?

I don't know where this myth that conservatives and republicans are the fiscally responsible parties came from, because recent history doesn't demonstrate that, for either nation.
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Old 09-30-2008, 12:37 PM   #713
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Arar's case isn't completely in the open. I know he wants to sue Ashcroft but the U.S. is holding information secret because they don't want the enemy to know how they find terrorists. We don't know the entire story. The government is going to take his word for it.
This doesn't even make sense.
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I get your sarcasm. You think these situations show that torture doesn't give enough evidence. Sometimes it does and it's certainly difficult because the U.S. can't respond to all questions, for national security reasons, and then they get criticised more. What I'm saying is that most of Guantanamo prisoners aren't that innocent due to the fact they were caught in action and letting them go creates a danger for soldiers. Being on the battlefield also means they are likely to have some information about what the terrorists and insurgents are doing compared to what Arar would know.
We don't know this! Where is this so called "battlefield"? Are you just trusting everything your government tells you?
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The U.S. will be unpopular around the world simply because they are a super power. Torture or no. You won't be able to appease the rest of the world without ignoring your own national security.
This isn't about appeasing. This is about practicing what you preach. This is about doing the right thing. No one is ignoring national security except you and others who are saying it's ok to throw out all law.
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Old 09-30-2008, 12:45 PM   #714
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Wow. Chretien slashed spending and provincial transfer payments, and eliminated the huge deficit left over from the Conservative government, and then ran five consecutive budget surpluses, while implementing tax cuts.

But he was a socialist, right?

I don't know where this myth that conservatives and republicans are the fiscally responsible parties came from, because recent history doesn't demonstrate that, for either nation.
Paul Martin you mean? You can have balanced budgets with higher taxes. Even the NDP believes in balanced budgets. What percentage of the GDP should be in the hands of the government to satisfy you? Should NAFTA be removed?

You are right the the conservatives sometimes act socialist or they lower taxes too quickly before dealing with deficits. Certainly Mulroney had to inherit debt from Trudeau and any attempts to cut spending was massively criticized. Increasing taxes would lead his own party to criticize. He didn't bother in the end.

The Republicans aren't all conservative either since they blew money in the '00's more than republicans did in '94. "Compassionate Conservatism" is what Bush said. He's a moderate due to his narrow election victory in 2000. Conservatives now are trying to reclaim their party.

Clinton wisely got out of the way in the '90's and didn't veto bills to reduce chronic welfare recipients and Clinton didn't stop congress from balancing the budget. I'll give him that credit, but these were initiated by the Contract with America not Clinton. He keeps trying to take credit for that period.

Reagan reduced tax rates inherited from the '70's and pushed for free trade. He wanted to get a handle on spending but the Congress was Democrat for a long time and kept the spending going. Conservatives should stand for their principles of balanced budget with lower taxes. Paying off federal debt will help to solidify lower taxes like in Alberta.
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Old 09-30-2008, 12:46 PM   #715
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Wow. Chretien slashed spending and provincial transfer payments, and eliminated the huge deficit left over from the Conservative government, and then ran five consecutive budget surpluses, while implementing tax cuts.

But he was a socialist, right?

I don't know where this myth that conservatives and republicans are the fiscally responsible parties came from, because recent history doesn't demonstrate that, for either nation.
Well said!

Conservatives think they have the monopoly on the economy as liberals think they have the monopoly on social programs. Neither is entirely true.
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Old 09-30-2008, 12:50 PM   #716
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Paying off federal debt will help to solidify lower taxes like in Alberta.
What paid off the debt was our luck of having one of the largest deposits of oil in the world. Don't be misunderstood without oil we'd be a farming province and be perpetually "have not".
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Old 09-30-2008, 12:50 PM   #717
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so what do we do with these people? keep them in a legal netherworld where they have no rights, are subjected to "enhanced interrogation techniques," for what's been 6 years at this point, and then ... what, exactly?
We'll try the ones we have enough evidence (they killed soldiers) and keep the rest until the war is over. At some point they can't hold them forever because the war won't last forever. Even conservative politicians will hand Iraq and Afghanistan their hat and say "it's up to you now." That's why it's important that they win.
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Old 09-30-2008, 12:51 PM   #718
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"Compassionate Conservatism" is what Bush said. He's a moderate due to his narrow election victory in 2000. Conservatives now are trying to reclaim their party.
You gotta love it, only conservatives can turn the word "compassion" into a bad word.
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Old 09-30-2008, 12:55 PM   #719
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We'll try the ones we have enough evidence (they killed soldiers) and keep the rest until the war is over. At some point they can't hold them forever because the war won't last forever. Even conservative politicians will hand Iraq and Afghanistan their hat and say "it's up to you now." That's why it's important that they win.


when will the "War on Terror" be over?

you're okay with potentially detaining people and not charging them with anything but interrogating them indefinitely?

and we wonder why Al Qaeda doesn't have much difficulty recruiting.
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Old 09-30-2008, 12:56 PM   #720
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What paid off the debt was our luck of having one of the largest deposits of oil in the world. Don't be misunderstood without oil we'd be a farming province and be perpetually "have not".
We did fine with $10 a barrel. We had deficits with higher oil prices in the past. The trick is to not spend as if oil will always be high because it can dip like it did yesterday. Oil helped to pay it off faster but you still have to exercise restraint. Lobbyists will always want more.
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