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Old 09-29-2008, 09:28 PM   #676
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David Horowitz is on the forefront of it, but of course he used to be a communist and changed his mind. Left wing people who move to the right not surprisingly understand what's going on better than some on the right.


do you know much about Horowitz?
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Old 09-29-2008, 09:30 PM   #677
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The confessions that aren't false are the ones that help. We should use many methods at the same time including local informants. I'm aware that torture isn't the entire war. To me any information that can help the soldiers on the battlefield has some worth.


do you know about the time, effort, money, and manpower that have been spent chasing down "information" that came from tortured suspects?
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Old 09-29-2008, 09:31 PM   #678
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Ok, so it's not really about looking good to anyone. It's about holding rational arguments with decent evidence. When you make blanket statements that liberals all read marx and engage in communist intimidation tactics against conservatives and then bring up one class you took as evidence, then yes, your argument is weak and doesn't really hold up well. Same thing with statements that lawyers love socialism. Except you didn't bring up any evidence to actually support that one.



Pardon me if I don't take your word as expert opinion on torture and its efficacy. The majority of the military seems to disagree with your assessment that torture is the way to go. It has also been shown that torture isn't a reliable source of information. It has been shown that some people will say and admit to anything to get the torture to stop. If you were innocent, but you were tortured so that you feared your life may be in immediate danger, do you think you might be willing to admit to something you didn't do in order to get the torture to stop?

Furthermore, I can't believe you're honestly arguing that we should be going beyond light torture to get information from people who may or may not have any information and who may or may not actually be terrorists, criminals or involved with terrorists and/or criminals. I'd like to think that we should hold ourselves to higher standards. Once again - not everyone who is detained is guilty of a crime. It's quite civilized of you to basically be advocating a 'shoot first, ask questions later' approach to intelligence gathering.

And you seem to be conveniently ignoring the case of Maher Arar, despite numerous posters in here bring it up. Care to comment on how that fits into your "Torture, torture, torture!" strategy?
Arar was an RCMP screw up where they looked at him as a person of interest and gave that info to the U.S. who naturally wouldn't ignore it. The members of the RCMP were fired, and Arar got millions. I'm talking about people caught on the battlefield. If we stop catching prisoners because we are afraid of mistakes we'll be handcuffed in fighting the war.

I don't sympathize with enemy combatants. If I was a soldier I wouldn't want face those guys again. If I could get more information from torture than never torturing I would prefer that. I mean it's an old story now and my point of view has lost, but it gives me shivers to think that we are releasing people who will join the Taliban and start again.
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Old 09-29-2008, 09:35 PM   #679
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do you know about the time, effort, money, and manpower that have been spent chasing down "information" that came from tortured suspects?
War costs time effort and money. Informants could also be wrong or have old information but not following up would also be criticized.

I don't know guys how to fight a perfect war. Certainly Petraeus has got a clue on how to in Iraq. Tipoffs on Saddam yielded nothing for a long time until it did. I'm sure it did cost lots of money and manpower.
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Old 09-29-2008, 09:39 PM   #680
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Cool, it's that easy. Torture them, treat them as subhumans, don't show a minimum of human decency to them, ignore any findings that the person is not guilty of anything and then just send them back after you simply won the war and let the newly set-up government handle the rest.
What process in the many cases of innocent? And how can Iraq's or Afghanistan's (or all the other government's of nations from which people are incarcerated in Guantanamo) intent have certainly been to process any person the US at one point detained? Especially when Bush's plan was to set-up a military tribunal which orders the sentences without due process or (sufficient) legal representation?
There is legal representation but it's done through the military so critics want a civilian system. I just don't care about people trying to kill our soldiers on the battlefield. If you get caught on the battlefield then what were you doing there?

I don't want our soldiers to have to face them again when they get released.
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Old 09-29-2008, 09:39 PM   #681
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War costs time effort and money. Informants could also be wrong or have old information but not following up would also be criticized.

I don't know guys how to fight a perfect war. Certainly Petraeus has got a clue on how to in Iraq. Tipoffs on Saddam yielded nothing for a long time until it did. I'm sure it did cost lots of money and manpower.


you realize that pretty much all that has gone wrong has been due to bad people wanting to believe in bad intelligence?

i'm sorry, you're very polite and well spoken, but this comes off as incredibly, incredibly naive. there is only so much blood and treasure to go around, empires are expensive to maintain. this seems like a very easy way to cut costs. we know torture doesn't work. we know it gives you false information. we know it makes it more dangerous for our soldiers. we know it reduces us to the level of those we're fighting. we know that once you let the sadists in, the whole system collapses into totalitarianism. ask yourself why they are now using the very techniques used on John McCain in the Hanoi Hilton. John McCain made and signed false statements and even attempted suicide.

it doesn't work. period. and it makes us all worse.
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Old 09-29-2008, 09:40 PM   #682
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If you get caught on the battlefield then what were you doing there?


don't know much about guerrilla warfare and occupations, do you.
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Old 09-29-2008, 09:42 PM   #683
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do you know much about Horowitz?
yes, his changed his orientation, political orientation.

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Old 09-29-2008, 09:44 PM   #684
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nevermind.
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Old 09-29-2008, 09:50 PM   #685
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don't know much about guerrilla warfare and occupations, do you.
Petraeus certainly does.
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Old 09-29-2008, 09:50 PM   #686
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do you know much about Horowitz?
Last I knew (I haven't read his articles since university years) he was trying to get accountability for hiring in schools so that it would be more balanced without trying to push liberals completely out either.

I don't know if he has succeeded anywhere. Let's check the net:


He has replies to critics on his Academic freedom campaign so he looks like he's still working on it.

FrontPage Magazine
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Old 09-29-2008, 09:54 PM   #687
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Oh well in that case I'll take your word for it.

Did you hear that it's also well known that students don't have the most objective views on professors they have strong ideological differences with?

Wow, I can over-generalize, too!
I hope you agree that marks should be allocated to knowledge of the material. I certainly don't want courses where you must agree with conservatives only. That would be boring. Any conservatives that push their agenda in classes are hypocrites and should be hung out to dry the same as the left wing ones.
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Old 09-29-2008, 09:55 PM   #688
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Petraeus certainly does.


and ...?

what does this have to do with the fact that torture doesn't work?
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Old 09-29-2008, 09:56 PM   #689
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Last I knew (I haven't read his articles since university years) he was trying to get accountability for hiring in schools so that it would be more balanced without trying to push liberals completely out either.

I don't know if he has succeeded anywhere. Let's check the net:


He has replies to critics on his Academic freedom campaign so he looks like he's still working on it.

FrontPage Magazine


he's a well paid right wing shill.

he has an agenda to promote just like Rush, Coulter, etc.

he's more intellectual than they are, yes, but he's offering the same straw men and working under the same false assumptions and trying to manufacture the same false outrage.
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Old 09-30-2008, 01:21 AM   #690
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and ...?

what does this have to do with the fact that torture doesn't work?
Well then it means you don't think the military got any information out of it then. They said they did but it's very unpopular. Certainly I can say this here because I'm not a politician. If I was I would be forced into that same point to be politically viable and McCain doesn't believe in it due to his experience but I'm trying VERY HARD to look at the point of view of the guy on the battlefield who didn't get killed because of good information. I'm looking at the guy who didn't die because terrorists and supporters were in Guantanamo Bay instead of the field.

The conversational topic I think can't continue because I think that some of the information is of value and you don't and we'll be spinning wheels on an issue that is not up for election. I'm aware a war isn't won or lost on torture but at minimum keep them locked up until the war is over in 2011. I hope the civilian style trials last long enough that it won't be an issue and Afghanistan is mostly running their own government.
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