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Old 09-24-2008, 05:14 PM   #256
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You're wrong as far as I am concerned.

Nothing that either of these men can offer is in any way key on getting this bailout bill passed - nevermind the question of whether there should be a bailout at all.

It is a political stunt and a cheap one at that.
I tend to agree with your assessment. Perhaps people will think it looks good that McCain is making this move to bolster his weakness, which is the economy. And then puts Obama in an awkward position. But as president of the USA, you should be able to handle a multitude of situations.

And as to what Dusty said, if Obama were to have been the one to postpone the debate, I would have been skeptical and not have thought it a good idea. We've had constant campaigning, and we finally have the two candidates scheduled to their first one on one debate, and they can definitely address the topic of the day: the economy. Ain't no better time than the present (unless perhaps you are down in the polls & scared)






As for the $700$ bill, I have no idea what's in it, but there definitely has to be some sort of oversight going on.
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Old 09-24-2008, 05:17 PM   #257
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wow, the rationalizations by every reality-be-damned conservative's favorite op-ed writer Jonah Goldberg are astonishing to read:

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Hold the Campaign [Jonah Goldberg]

There are two ways to score this: politically and as a matter of civics.

Politically, I think it is shrewd, even wise. It demonstrates McCain's willingness to make politics and partisanship a secondary concern. Obviously, some of McCain's detractors will see it as a gimmick. But politics is all about gimmickry in a sense. Symbolic gestures, tactical positioning, overtures to constituencies: that's what politicians do to communicate what kind of politician they are. Yes, as the guy behind, McCain has a greater interest to reset the campaign to more favorable terms. But that doesn't mean it's the wrong thing to do. He's communicating that he's the candidate that actually breaks with politics-as-usual when it's required. After all, there was something really idiotic about having the first debate be on foreign policy when virtually every American is rightly focused on the economy.

As a matter of civics, I am at a loss to understand what the argument against this could possibly be. I didn't much like the cancellation of the first night of the GOP convention because of the hurricane. Democracy should go on, and all that. But postponing a debate so that the world's oldest deliberative body can tackle the most pressing domestic crisis in modern memory seems both democratic and appropriate. The debate in Congress isn't a photo-op. It's what Congress is for.
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Old 09-24-2008, 05:20 PM   #258
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Somehow I imagine if it was Obama who had decided to suspend his campaign and go back to his real job in a time of economic crisis, people here would have praised the move and called Obama an American tapestry of hope and love or whatever.

Maybe I'm wrong though.
Could be the situation, could be not. The difference is a big difference in the polls, with Obama leading. Who has more to lose by postponing the campaign? Why postpone now (and not earlier this week or last week)?
And why postpone? Why not do both (work on the legislation and hold a debate)?
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Old 09-24-2008, 05:26 PM   #259
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It's the same old thing - Republicans using fear tactics to get elected. Only this time it's not omg!terroristswillgetyouifyoudon'tvoteforus!!! This time it's the nation's collective and personal financial complete and total collapse. Yawn.
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Old 09-24-2008, 05:26 PM   #260
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Both sides of FYM are overreacting to this. Delay the debate...so what. Try and help fix this mess and then get on with it. It's not like the debate is cancelled, just delayed by a week or so.
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Old 09-24-2008, 05:28 PM   #261
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Both sides of FYM are overreacting to this. Delay the debate...so what. Try and help fix this mess and then get on with it. It's not like the debate is cancelled, just delayed by a week or so.
But that's the thing. McCain knows squat about the economy, and personally, he's not going to do a damn thing. Let people who actually know what they're doing fix it. It's nothing but political posturing.
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Old 09-24-2008, 05:30 PM   #262
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Irvine, please.

We'll have a DEPRESSION by MONDAY.

Unemployment will more than double. We have to act now and ask questions later. Like in Iraq.
I think Henry Paulson and Ben Bernanke said that action needed to be taken this week and no later. There is urgent need to take action and it appears congress is dragging its feat. It would be unwise to repeat the mistakes made nearly 80 years ago.
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Old 09-24-2008, 05:31 PM   #263
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this is what Kool-Aid tastes like:

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Obama: Tick, Tick, Tick
Posted by: Duane R. Patterson at 3:45 PM
It's not that hard of a call to make, actually. John McCain notified the Obama campaign earlier this morning of his intention to suspend the campaign, postpone the debate Friday night, and return to Washington to work for the American people in an attempt to head off the financial crisis. Senator McCain made his comments public over an hour ago. Where is Barack Obama's statement? MSM's Obama campaign reporters are relaying that a response is coming, but that Senator Obama is still formulating his answer.

Leadership matters, and Obama's reaction today isn't leadership. John McCain said several times in his acceptance speech in St. Paul that country comes first. He showed that again today. What has Obama demonstrated other than inaction and political calculation today?

UPDATE: Unbelievable - Obama statement, almost two hours later than McCain, nothing about postponing debate, trying to take credit for the idea and first call of whatever joint statement is made. Follow up questions are answered by Obama nuancing who called who and when. Very petty and irrelevant. When the two did talk, McCain outlined what his campaign was going to do, and Obama dithered for two hours to try and downplay McCain's leadership.

Whatever bailout plan gets implemented, if there is one, either Senator McCain or Senator Obama is going to have to deal with the results of it. Both are sitting U.S. Senators, and have the ability to help craft and negotiate the language of the bill. Obama would have you believe that it's important , but not enough so of a crisis for him to have to go to Washington and actually serve in his current role as Senator. John McCain recognizes the magnitude of the crisis, and wants to actually do what he can to improve the language.

Obama - Demagoguery I Hope You Will Believe In.

McCain - Country First.
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Old 09-24-2008, 05:31 PM   #264
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I think Henry Paulson and Ben Bernanke said that action needed to be taken this week and no later. There is urgent need to take action and it appears congress is dragging its feat. It would be unwise to repeat the mistakes made nearly 80 years ago.


yes, let's suspend democracy.

we suspended the Constitution when we realized we had to go fight all terrorists everywhere. why should this be any different?
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Old 09-24-2008, 05:34 PM   #265
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But that's the thing. McCain knows squat about the economy, and personally, he's not going to do a damn thing. Let people who actually know what they're doing fix it. It's nothing but political posturing.
If Obama is smart he'll immediatley join McCain in Washington. If the two of them broker some kind of a deal then polls remain unchanged. If Obama listens to some of his dumber advisors and doesn't stop campaigning for a few days he'll be seen as not caring and McCain's numbers will skyrocket. Of coarse this is a big game...it's politics. I'm just worried Obama may take the wrong advice from some of his advisors. I think he's smarter than that though. Hopefully.
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Old 09-24-2008, 05:35 PM   #266
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I think Henry Paulson and Ben Bernanke said that action needed to be taken this week and no later.
Why?

So they can pass a bill without oversight that gives Paulson unfettered discretion?

Do you realize that the economists are split between those who universally think the bill is bad and those who don't think there should be a bill in the first place?

Why do you trust Paulson and Bernanke? Can you explain to me what will happen if the bill isn't passed this week? We'll all catch on fire on Monday? Please.
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Old 09-24-2008, 05:40 PM   #267
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Why?

So they can pass a bill without oversight that gives Paulson unfettered discretion?

Do you realize that the economists are split between those who universally think the bill is bad and those who don't think there should be a bill in the first place?

Why do you trust Paulson and Bernanke? Can you explain to me what will happen if the bill isn't passed this week? We'll all catch on fire on Monday? Please.

Paulson and Bernanke already explained what could happen. Can you explain to me how we would be better off waiting, especially in light of what happened 80 years ago?
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Old 09-24-2008, 05:47 PM   #268
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Paulson and Bernanke already explained what could happen. Can you explain to me how we would be better off waiting, especially in light of what happened 80 years ago?
I don't find anything they're saying believable.

I also have not read a single economist comment on how the world will end if this bill isn't signed tomorrow. The vast majority of them are imploring the opposite in fact.

And I am not saying you should wait and do nothing - get a bill that works! (If one is passed at all which seems like the most likely outcome) Why would you want to bail out foreign financial institutions? Why would you want to give unfettered discretion to Paulson who bears a large part of the responsibility here? Why is nobody questioning the ban on shorting?

Suddenly the Americans have so little faith in the market that they believe it will collapse this weekend like Cinderella at midnight? This is fearmongering at its worst. Yes, this financial crisis is real and it is serious, but the worst thing would be to amplify it even further by passing a terrible bill that doesn't work.

Follow the money here - they're moving theoretical money around in a circle with few guarantees that it will work. Why on earth would you trust them to get it right? A few extra days will hurt NOTHING.
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Old 09-24-2008, 05:49 PM   #269
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I think Henry Paulson and Ben Bernanke said that action needed to be taken this week and no later. There is urgent need to take action and it appears congress is dragging its feat. It would be unwise to repeat the mistakes made nearly 80 years ago.
Could be.
In the meanwhile, the private sector is also taking action.
My Way News - Buffett's Berkshire betting $5 billion on Goldman
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Warren Buffett, one of the world's best known and wealthiest investors, is betting $5 billion that the U.S. financial system is not about to collapse.

Buffett's Berkshire Hathaway Inc. (BRKA) said Tuesday it will invest at least $5 billion in Goldman Sachs Group Inc. (GS), a huge vote of confidence for one of the survivors of the credit crisis that felled two of its investment banking peers.
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Old 09-24-2008, 05:55 PM   #270
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A few extra days will hurt NOTHING.
The market has already been hurt with all this foot dragging. How long do you think they have to come up with the best bill possible?
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