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Old 12-02-2007, 10:27 PM   #76
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Originally posted by 2861U2


Excuse me?

Assuming you're referring to me, I do not feel defeated in the slightest. And about me bringing up Clinton? It's a fact, sir. If you guys disagree with the Republican candidates here, I don't care. I'm just trying to remind you that it was one of your own who started the policy. Same principle applies for your WMD example. Bringing up Democrats who voted for this war is absolutely a legitimate point in an argument, and anyone who says otherwise is, as far as I can see, ashamed and trying to run from the fact.
No I wasn't referring to you, or I may have, I don't know, because I hadn't read your posts before making my comment. I just saw the few posts before of Clinton and I had a feeling that the conversation had to do with what I was making fun of, about how neo-cons bring up Clinton when people attack Bush policies.

Now let me ask you this.

If I were to criticize Bush for using WMD as a reason to go into Iraq, why on earth would an attack on Clinton statements be a defense on my statement?

The same works the other way around.

If I attacked the Clinton administrations policy of DADT, saying that "Reagan supported a similar policy also" is NOT the appropriate response (not that Reagan supported it).

It makes more sense to defend the policy being attacked rather than saying that "so and so supported it also." Okay, well that doesn't make it right.

None of this is directed towards you or anyone specifically, i'm just saying.


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Bringing up Democrats who voted for this war is absolutely a legitimate point in an argument, and anyone who says otherwise is, as far as I can see, ashamed and trying to run from the fact. [/B]
But why is that a legitimate point in the argument I don't understand?

Most of the Congress voted for the war, yes, but I still blame the executive branch more then any Senator or Congressman.

This may sound like a 3rd grade argument, but it was Bush's idea to begin with, he is the one that bent the truth and lied in some cases.

Does the Congress deserve partial blame even? Yes they do, because they were careless and irresponsible and just voted for the war without fully studying the facts. But they didn't lie. They were careless, but they didn't lie like Bush did.

So basically, Congress was lazy and Bush took advantage of it, in the simplest terms IMHO.

Let me give an analogy, its like having a prisoner escape from jail because of a lazy watchman.

While the watchman does have partial blame, most of the blame goes to the prisoner, because he was the one who actually took advantage.

Anyway, if you think it is a good idea to bring up democrats who voted for the war, why not also bring up republicans who voted for the war? So both republicans and democrats voted for the war, okay, so now what? Do you see my point? If i'm blaming Bush for lying to the nation about WMD's, there is no point in saying "Oh this Democrat voted for the war also" because I can just as easily say "Oh this Republican voted also." Its not going to get us anywhere in an argument, no point.

And by the way, my candidate Ron Paul did NOT vote for the war, just stating the facts.
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Old 12-03-2007, 01:14 AM   #77
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Originally posted by BonosSaint
There are no further baby steps to take. The next forward move is for gays to openly serve in the military, subject to the same sexual conduct rules as heterosexuals.
Obviously true. Unfortunately, there's still a few people out there who will cling to outdated ideas, and will need those baby steps, because rapid change scares them. To which I'd say, be it slow or sudden, change is going to happen no matter what, so deal with it, but...*Shrugs*.

I think, though, for the most part, acceptance of homosexuality is speeding up big time nowadays. I really feel most people in this country just don't care one way or another anymore.

Anywho, I'm in agreement with Infinitum-we can play the blame game all day long, but that's not going to solve anything. Everyone just needs to acknowledge that people in both parties have made some ridiculously stupid blunders over the years, and then go on to say, "Okay, now how can we work together to fix these problems?" Unfortunately, the political climate nowadays is such that that's easier said than done.

Angela
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Old 12-03-2007, 02:06 PM   #78
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WASHINGTON (CNN) – Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama is getting advice from an unlikely source: former top Bush aide Karl Rove.

The man behind Bush's two presidential victories took to the pages of the Financial Times Sunday to offer the candidate some unsolicited suggestions on how to beat rival Hillary Clinton.

In an open memo to Obama, Rove said the Illinois senator currently appears "weak and ineffectual," and should start sharpening his attacks on the New York Democrat.

"Stop acting like a vitamin-deficient Adlai Stevenson," Rove writes in reference to another Illinois Democrat who twice ran for president and lost. "Striking a pose of being high-minded and too pure will not work. Americans want to see you scrapping and fighting for the job, not in a mean or ugly way but in a forceful and straightforward way."

Rove also suggests Obama exploit the "real doubts" many Democrats feel about Clinton, take clear stances on the issues, and better articulate the type of change he is hoping to represent.

Finally, Rove says Obama needs to decry what he calls Clinton's complaints that she is "being picked on."

"Find a way to gently belittle her whenever she tries to use disagreements among Democrats as an excuse to complain about being picked on," Rove writes. "The toughest candidate in the field should not be able to complain when others disagree with her. This is not a coronation."

"Blow the whistle on her when she tries to become a victim," he continues. "Do it with humor and a smile and it will sting even more."

Rove's memo comes the same day a new poll out of crucial early-voting state Iowa shows Obama seems to have taken a lead over Clinton, 28 percent to 25 percent. Former North Carolina Sen. John Edwards is a close third at 23 percent. With the poll's 4.4 percent margin of error, the race in the Hawkeye State is a statistical dead heat.

Responding to the memo, a Clinton campaign spokesperson said, "Why is Karl Rove giving Sen. Obama advice on how to win? Could it be that he thinks it will be easier for Republicans to run against the unknown gentleman from Illinois?"

Politico's Jim VandeHei said it's more likely Rove is seeking publicity and wants to have a voice as the election unfolds.

"If you're a gambler you want to be at the table, and he very much wants to be part of this debate," VandeHei said.
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Old 12-03-2007, 03:18 PM   #79
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That is weird, Rove giving advice to Obama!
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Old 12-03-2007, 03:21 PM   #80
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Originally posted by 2861U2


From what I understand, gays were being brutally harassed in the military (Allen Schindler), causing Clinton to sign DADT. That's no excuse though. Saying that somebody CAN'T serve in the military if they desire is just wrong. If a homosexual acknowledges the potential danger to himself by his peers and doesn't want to take a chance, fine. But I'm sure there were those who, knowing of the harassment, would still have signed up and couldnt.
I agree.
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Old 12-03-2007, 10:11 PM   #81
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Old 12-03-2007, 11:30 PM   #82
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Hahaha, that was awesome . Scary when listening to the other candidates speak, but go, Ron Paul. Did I mention his views on dealing with terrorism make me happy?

There's definitely areas where Ron Paul and I would likely disagree (I'm more for some amount of gun control than he is), but man, if he could miraculously win the Republican nomination, that would be great.

As for that article about Rove giving advice to Obama, while I agree that it wouldn't hurt the guy to be more assertive, at the same time, I kinda like the fact that he isn't picking at Clinton every single second. He shouldn't have to. Instead, I say he should just stick to talking about his campaign and why he's the best person for the job. He can respond to criticisms from Clinton, and point out where she's wrong in what she says about him as well as why she's wrong, but that's all. He doesn't need to do any "belittling" of any kind, he doesn't need to call her out on her "victim" thing. Let her handle that problem. If the public gets tired of anything Hilary is doing, they'll let her know in their own way.

Angela
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Old 12-04-2007, 12:50 AM   #83
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Originally posted by Moonlit_Angel
but go, Ron Paul. Did I mention his views on dealing with terrorism make me happy?

There's definitely areas where Ron Paul and I would likely disagree (I'm more for some amount of gun control than he is), but man, if he could miraculously win the Republican nomination, that would be great.

Ron Paul and I differ on who gets to control my reproductive functions.
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Old 12-04-2007, 01:57 AM   #84
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Ron Paul and I differ on who gets to control my reproductive functions.
And I would disagree with him there, too. However, I know what the info on his site states in regards to this issue, but at the same time, if he's as true to his "small government interference" stance as it seems, that could work in our favor.

I'm still planning on voting Democrat or independent next year. I just think that Ron is the least frightening of the Republican candidates-he has beliefs that would endear him to the Democrats as well as beliefs that would endear him to the Republicans, so out of everybody available, that would make him the best choice for the nomination.

Angela
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Old 12-04-2007, 04:54 AM   #85
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Originally posted by verte76
That is weird, Rove giving advice to Obama!
Yet, I saw him on Meet The Press several weeks ago say that he looked forward to the Reps running against Hillary Clinton.

Maybe he's been sucked in by the media push for Obama.
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Old 12-04-2007, 07:57 AM   #86
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Maybe he's been sucked in by the media push for Obama.
Or maybe he's just a media whore who can't stand not getting any attention.
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Old 12-04-2007, 05:49 PM   #87
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Ron Paul and I differ on who gets to control my reproductive functions.
Me too. I'm a pro-choice Catholic. But I don't like to discuss abortion in public. It's too emotional.
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Old 12-04-2007, 05:53 PM   #88
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So let me get this straight. Obama looks forward to the Republicans running against Hillary?
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Old 12-04-2007, 05:54 PM   #89
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Or maybe he's just a media whore who can't stand not getting any attention.
Yeah, Rove is used to getting attention.
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Old 12-04-2007, 05:59 PM   #90
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Bringing up Democrats who voted for the war is a perfectly legitimate thing. Hillary voted for it, Edwards voted for it, Kerry voted for it. Obama didn't, he opposed the war from the beginning. Of all the front-runners he's the only innocent one.
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