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Old 01-24-2008, 11:24 AM   #871
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I have to say it's really fun watching the Clintons and Obama go after each other. And I'm not just saying that as a Republican who loves seeing them beat each other up. I was only 4-12 when Clinton was president, so I never really experienced how the Clinton machine works, but now I see how ambitious, powerful and relentless they both are, and it seems to always work to their advantage. It'll be interesting to see how this all plays out, that's for sure.
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Old 01-24-2008, 01:04 PM   #872
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A friend of mine sent me this link today.

http://www.shutupbill.com/billclinton.html
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Old 01-24-2008, 02:16 PM   #873
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First Norris backed Huckabee, and now this:

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php...show_article=1
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Old 01-24-2008, 03:33 PM   #874
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All of this Clinton bashing does come with an asterisk from me: I'd still take Clinton any day of the week over Bush, and twice on Sunday.
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Old 01-24-2008, 03:40 PM   #875
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The real John McCain?:

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Old 01-24-2008, 04:25 PM   #876
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Quote:
McCain Says Clinton Would ‘Surrender’

The New York Times, January 24, 2008

Senator John McCain launched into a pointed critique of his Senate colleague Hillary Rodham Clinton today, saying that “for the first time in political history” a presidential candidate has called for outright surrender in a war. “Candidate Clinton has called for surrender and waving the white flag,” he said during an appearance in West Palm Beach. “I think it’s terrible. I think it’s terrible.”

His remarks come as he is campaigning hard in Florida, hoping to defeat Rudolph W. Giuliani and keep the momentum from his victory last Saturday in South Carolina. In his remarks, he seemed to suggest Mrs. Clinton would be the nominee, and was perhaps using her as a vehicle to rally Republican voters in the run-up to the primary. “I look forward to the debate with Senator Clinton on that issue. Americans don’t want to throw away the hard-earned gains we have made against Al Qaeda and Iraq. If Senator Clinton has her way, Al Qaeda will trumpet to the world that they have beaten the United States. For us to do what Senator Clinton wants us to do — that is to wave the white flag -– I cannot guarantee United States security in the region or in the United States.”

Phil Singer, a spokesman for Senator Clinton, emailed this response: “Senator Clinton and Senator McCain disagree. Senator McCain says it would be fine with him if our troops were in Iraq for 100 years. Senator Clinton wants to end the war and will bring our troops home quickly and responsibly. That’s the best way to defend our nation and protect our national security interests.”
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Old 01-24-2008, 04:51 PM   #877
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yay! an entire campaign based on reductionist statements on Iraq!

well, the Clintons certainly have proven adept at the worst kind of mud slinging, obfuscations, distortions, and outright lies. the only good thing about an Obama defeat would be to watch potentially the two most narcissistic people of their generation turn their vicious, nasty politics on the Republicans.

and McCain should be worried. as the primaries have shown, he's not running against Hillary. he'll either run against Obama, or against The Clintons.

maybe it's the grim january weather, maybe it's the end of the week and i'm tired, or maybe i just need a snack, but the idea of having to vote for any of these loathsome people -- Obama excluded -- is enough to make me want to crawl under the covers and stay there.

in a country of 300m people, bursting with innovation and ideas, a country that rewards initiative and ambition, *this* is all we get?
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Old 01-24-2008, 05:16 PM   #878
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Quote:
Voters Show Darker Mood Than in 2000

By KEVIN SACK
New York Times, January 24


KANSAS CITY, Mo. — Whatever their ideological differences this election year, Americans seem able to agree on one thing: the political landscape being crisscrossed by the 2008 candidates is barely recognizable as the one traveled by George W. Bush and Al Gore a mere eight years ago.

Obviously, Sept. 11 and its aftermath have changed the country in countless and irretrievable ways. But even beyond the emergence of war and national security as pre-eminent concerns, there has been a profound reordering of domestic priorities, a darkening of the country’s mood and, in the eyes of many, a fraying of America’s very sense of itself. While not universal, that tone pervaded dozens of interviews conducted over the last week with Americans of all political stripes in 8 of the 24 states that hold primaries or caucuses on Feb. 5, as well as with historians, elected officials, political strategists and poll takers. As the candidates fan out to New York and California and here to the heartland, they are confronting an electorate that is deeply unsettled about the United States’ place in the world and its ability to control its own destiny.

Since World War II, the assumption of American hegemony has never been much in doubt. That it now is, at least for some people, has given this campaign a sense of urgency that was not always felt in 2000, despite the dramatic outcome of that race. Several writers and historians remarked on the psychological impact of such a jarring end to the Pax Americana, just as it seemed that victory in the cold war might usher in prolonged prosperity and relative peace (save the occasional mop-up operation). Its confluence with an era of unparalleled technological innovation had only heightened the nation’s sense of post-millennial possibility.

Now, Americans feel a loss of autonomy, in their own lives and in the nation. Their politics are driven by the powerlessness they feel to control their financial well-being, their safety, their environment, their health and the country’s borders. They question whether each generation will continue to ascend the economic ladder. That the political system seems so impotent only deepens their frustration and their insistence on results.

As she considers this campaign, Susan C. Powell, a 47-year-old training consultant who lives in a Kansas City suburb, said that what she feels is not so much hopelessness as doom. “I know plenty of people who are doing worse than they were,” Ms. Powell said, “and nobody’s helping them out. People’s incomes are not keeping pace with inflation. People can’t afford their homes. People in their 30s and 40s, middle-income, and they don’t have jobs they can count on or access to health care. How can we say that we’re the greatest country on earth and essentially have the walking wounded?”

Carter Eskew, a top strategist for Mr. Gore in 2000, recalled the factors that drove public opinion then — like a modest increase in fuel prices and the bursting of the technology stock bubble — as “naïvely quaint by today’s standards.” His Republican counterpart, Mark McKinnon, who advised Mr. Bush in 2000 and now works for Senator John McCain, said the electorate saw this campaign as far more consequential. The change in tone came through in interviews in coffee bars, barbecue joints and shopping malls as people vented about unaffordable health premiums, porous international borders, freakish weather, government eavesdropping, Chinese imports and customer service calls that are answered in India.

...Public opinion polling is also detecting an erosion of the country’s self- image. A CBS News/ New York Times poll taken this month found that 75% of respondents thought the country had “pretty seriously gotten off on the wrong track,” up from 44% in May 2000. Not surprisingly, that judgment varies by political affiliation. But even 42% of Republicans agreed, not far shy of the 52% who said so in 1999, in the twilight of an eight-year Democratic presidency.

...This year’s dissatisfaction seems to have less to do with any fundamental shift in the nation’s ideological and partisan leanings than with its broadening displeasure with the Bush administration’s handling of the war and the economy. In CBS News/New York Times polls taken in February 2000 and January this year, the percentages of respondents who aligned themselves with a given party or ideology were almost precisely the same.

It is not yet clear how the discontent may be affecting the primary races. The Republican race remains a muddle, and the one Democratic candidate who has made the most populist appeal to change the nation’s direction — former Senator John Edwards — remains a distant third. So far, at least, his message has not caught on in a race that has been marked more by the historic nature of the campaigns run by Senators Barack Obama and Hillary Rodham Clinton. Nonetheless, any of the Democrats would represent a sharp break with the policies of the last eight years, and polls suggest that the Democrats began this year with a political advantage they could not have imagined eight years ago. Asked a year before the 2000 election which party’s candidate they were likely to support, respondents were evenly divided. Asked the same question this month, they favored the Democrats by 18 percentage points. Much of the shift is thought to have been among independents. That swing, fueled by antiwar sentiment, helped the Democrats win control of Congress in 2006. In some states, there is evidence of its impact well down the ballot. In Denver’s once reliably Republican suburbs, for instance, Democratic voter registration has grown since 2000 at 10 times the rate of Republican registration.

...The issues have also shifted. Of the top eight political concerns found in a CBS News/New York Times poll this month, only three were on the list eight years ago. Terrorism, immigration, the environment and fuel prices did not register a blip back then. (The other top concern identified in recent polling was the Iraq war.) In the 2000 campaign, it was possible for Mr. Bush to deride Mr. Gore’s environmentalism to considerable effect. Eight years later, Mr. Gore is a Nobel laureate, and coiled light bulbs and hybrid cars are status symbols. Since the campaign of 2000, the United States has lost 4400 men and women in wars overseas, and nearly 3000 people in the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001. Hispanics have become the country’s largest minority, accounting for nearly half of annual population growth. Gasoline prices have doubled, and the home foreclosure rate has increased by 55%. The proportion of Americans without health insurance, which was declining at decade’s end, has grown by 2 percentage points. Both the unemployment and poverty rates are a percentage point higher. War spending has helped convert a $236 billion federal budget surplus into a $163 billion deficit (reduced from $413 billion in 2004).

Many of those interviewed remembered the emphasis placed in the 2000 campaign on restoring personal integrity to the Oval Office. Several volunteered that the focus of the current campaign should be on the rectitude of the country’s role in the world. “In 2000,” said Philip R. Dupont, a Kansas City lawyer, “one of Bush’s big platforms was that he’d restore honesty and integrity to the White House. Then he went out and attacked a sovereign nation that had done nothing to us.”

As issues like health care, climate change and immigration have become more urgent, Americans seem less willing to dismiss failures of government and political polarization as business as usual. It feels more personal to them now, and they are demanding results. Erwin Epple, who owns a pizza franchise in Knoxville, Tenn., boiled with frustration as he vowed to vote for the candidate who convinces him that he or she is most able to solve problems. “I’m sick and tired of the party line and the platitudes,” he said. “I’m hearing hope. I’m hearing trust. But I’m not hearing solutions.”
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Old 01-24-2008, 06:12 PM   #879
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dennis is dropping out he's gonna announce it tonight.
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Old 01-24-2008, 06:27 PM   #880
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Originally posted by phillyfan26
All of this Clinton bashing does come with an asterisk from me: I'd still take Clinton any day of the week over Bush, and twice on Sunday.
Fuck

Yes.
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Old 01-24-2008, 06:27 PM   #881
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Originally posted by unico
dennis is dropping out he's gonna announce it tonight.
Now who the hell do I vote for on the fifth?
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Old 01-24-2008, 06:34 PM   #882
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Originally posted by Irvine511


in a country of 300m people, bursting with innovation and ideas, a country that rewards initiative and ambition, *this* is all we get?
I was kinding of thinking about this the other day. Over the past year or so, all the talk has been about how Washington is broken and how this is the election of "change" and how truly wide-open this race is, and how the young people want a new, "outsider" type.

Wouldn't it be something if after all is said and done, we end up with Hillary vs. McCain?
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Old 01-24-2008, 07:46 PM   #883
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Originally posted by martha


Now who the hell do I vote for on the fifth?
might as well

vote for the person
you will vote for in Nov
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Old 01-24-2008, 07:48 PM   #884
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When the primary cycle is over


who will have won more Democratic Primaries / Caucuses??


Obama 2008

or

Jackson 1988 ??
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Old 01-24-2008, 07:53 PM   #885
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Quote:
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dennis is dropping out he's gonna announce it tonight.
he is nervous about losing his house seat



he better (look up)
and keep an eye on that wife of his
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