US 2008 Presidential Campaign/Debate Discussion Thread #6

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silly me, getting drawn into the insanity of discussing anything with STING.

anyway, as for the polls, yes, the daily polls show that, this week, things are tightening. but i don't think we have any idea what the country is thinking yet. i don't think the country knows what it's thinking yet. last week, Obama was up 15 in the Newsweek poll. this week, it's down to 4?

nah. what's important now are the polls either in the individual states, or the polls about the general mood in the country. everyone's pointing to the Rasmussen poll (even though we're told that the only poll that ever counts is Gallup :cute: ), but this same poll has Obama now up 8 in Michigan.

so who knows?

my guess is that these are statistical fluctuations with a few outliers, and Obama has a small but real 5ish point lead nationally.

:shrug:

The newsweek poll is down to 3 now actually. Gallup does not do state polls, but they are still the most consistently accurate over time in the national poll, which I admit is not actually the main thing to be looking at in this election.

While things are tightening up in other national polls besides Gallup, Barack Obama's position in the swing states has substantially improved ironically. Currently, all the Blue states appear to be out of reach for McCain, and the key to be looking out now is McCain holding states that are tipping like Virginia, Ohio, and Indiana. Missouri has held up surprisingly well over the past few months although there is a new polls that shows Barack ahead there. Nevada still seems to be with McCain.

The red states that seem to have gone blue and will be difficult for McCain to get back are just enough to win the election for Obama, Iowa, Colorodo, and New Mexico. But provided McCain is able to hold Ohio and Virginia, he still has a shot at getting back one of those formally red states which would give him the win.
 
Continuously claiming that the removal of Saddam from power by the US military is the worst foreign policy mistake in US history and that it has made the United States less safe.

That in no way equals "mourning the removal of Saddam" - and you should be smart enough to realize that.
 
Obama on the War


Peter Wehner - 07.14.2008 - 9:54 AM

In his New York Times op-ed today on Iraq, Barack Obama makes several claims worth examining.

In his opening paragraph, Obama writes

"The call by Prime Minister Nuri Kamal al-Maliki for a timetable for the removal of American troops from Iraq presents an enormous opportunity. We should seize this moment to begin the phased redeployment of combat troops that I have long advocated, and that is needed for long-term success in Iraq and the security interests of the United States."

A phased redeployment of combat troops can now be done in the context of a victory in Iraq, whereas when Obama first called for the complete withdrawal of all combat troops in Iraq by March 2008, it would have led to an American defeat. It is because President Bush endorsed a counterinsurgency plan which Senator Obama fiercely opposed that we are in a position to both withdraw additional combat troops and prevail in Iraq.

Obama goes on to write

"In the 18 months since President Bush announced the surge, our troops have performed heroically in bringing down the level of violence. New tactics have protected the Iraqi population, and the Sunni tribes have rejected Al Qaeda - greatly weakening its effectiveness."

"But the same factors that led me to oppose the surge still hold true. The strain on our military has grown, the situation in Afghanistan has deteriorated and we’ve spent nearly $200 billion more in Iraq than we had budgeted. Iraq’s leaders have failed to invest tens of billions of dollars in oil revenues in rebuilding their own country, and they have not reached the political accommodation that was the stated purpose of the surge . . . Only by redeploying our troops can we press the Iraqis to reach comprehensive political accommodation and achieve a successful transition to Iraqis’ taking responsibility for the security and stability of their country."

This point cannot be emphasized enough: Obama, in opposing the surge, was wrong on the most important politico-military decision since the war began. He not only opposed the surge, he predicted in advance that it could not succeed and that it would not lead to a decrease in violence (on January 10, 2007, the night President Bush announced the surge, Obama declared he saw nothing in the plan that would “make a significant dent in the sectarian violence that’s taking place there.” A week later, he repeated the point emphatically: the surge strategy would “not prove to be one that changes the dynamics significantly.”)


Both predictions were demonstrably wrong. And for Obama to state that Iraq’s leaders “have not reached the political accommodation that was the stated purpose of the surge” is misleading and false. Iraqi leaders have reached comprehensive political accommodations, including passing key laws having to do with provincial elections, the distribution of resources, amnesty, pensions, investment, and de-Ba’athification. In fact, a report card issued in May judged that Iraq’s efforts on 15 of 18 benchmarks are “satisfactory”–almost twice of what it determined to be the case a year ago. Is Obama unaware of these achievements? Does he care at all about them?


In addition, Prime Minister Maliki, a Shiite Muslim, has taken to lead in opposing Shiite militia throughout Iraq, which in turn has led in a rallying of political support for Maliki throughout Iraq and respect for him among other Arab leaders.

The successful, Iraqi-led operations in Basra, Sadr City, and elsewhere completely subvert Obama’s claim that “only be redeploying our troops” can these things be achieved. They are in fact being achieved, something which would have been impossible if Obama’s “redeployment” plan had been put in place.


Obama writes this as well:

"for far too long, those responsible for the greatest strategic blunder in the recent history of American foreign policy have ignored useful debate in favor of making false charges about flip-flops and surrender."

In fact, it is far from clear that Iraq will be judged a strategic blunder at all, let alone the “greatest strategic blunder in the recent history of American foreign policy.” It is now plausible to argue that the Iraq war will lead to a defeat of historic proportions for al Qaeda. It has already triggered a massive Sunni Muslim uprising against al Qaeda, a repudiation of violent jihadism from some of its original architects, and a significant shift within the Muslim world against the brutal tactics of jihadists. Iraq is also, right now, the only authentic democracy in the Arab world. And Saddam Hussein, the most aggressive and destabilizing force in the Middle East for the last several decades, is dead, and his genocidal regime is now but an awful, infamous memory.

This is not to deny that huge mistakes and miscalculations were made in the Phase IV planning of the war; it is to say, however, that those mistakes have been rectified and that we are now on the road to success in Iraq. None of this would have been possible if Senator Obama’s recommendations had been followed. It’s worth adding, I suppose, that if Obama’s recommendations had been followed, the results would qualify as the greatest strategic blunder in the recent history of American foreign policy.

Finally, Obama writes this:

"on my first day in office, I would give the military a new mission: ending this war."

This is in some ways the most revealing statement written by Obama. He still cannot bring himself to say that the mission in Iraq is success, even when success is clearly within our grasp. For Obama the mission is, and since his presidential announcement in February 2007 has been, to end the war, even if it means an American loss of epic proportions. And if Obama had had his way, that is exactly what would have come to pass.


Among the most striking things about Obama’s op-ed is how intellectually dishonest it is, particularly for a man who once proudly proclaimed that he would let facts rather than preconceived views dictate his positions on Iraq.Obama’s op-ed is the effort of an arrogant and intellectually rigid man, one who disdains empirical evidence and is attempting to justify the fact that he has been consistently wrong on Iraq since the war began (for more, see my April 2008 article in Commentary, “Obama’s War“).

Senator Obama is once again practicing the “old politics” he claims to stand against, which is bad enough. But that Obama would have allowed America to lose, al Qaeda and Iran to win, and the Iraqi people to suffer mass death and possibly genocide because of his ideological opposition to the war is far worse. On those grounds alone, he ought to be disqualified from being America’s next commander-in-chief.

Commentary ? Blog Archive ? Obama on the War
 
They didn't get it wrong. Its a fact that Saddam was in violation of 17 UN security council resolutions, had failed to verifiably disarm of all WMD, and after the war was discovered to have hidden multiple programs related to the production of WMD in direct violation of the resolutions and the 1991 Gulf War Ceacefire agreement. Saddam never gave up his intentions to aquire new WMD and dominate the Persian Gulf.

Wow, that didn't even come close to addressing the issue I was discussing, do you read the posts you reply to? This has nothing to do with why so many mention 9/11, war on terror, satellite footage, etc as to why we're over there.

So now your claiming that those motivated to join Al Quada since the invasion of Iraq actually support the US invasion and occupation of Afghanistan and have not and will not fight for Bin Ladin in the Afghanistan/Pakistan region? Their only motivation for joining Al Quada is the removal of Saddam from power?

:huh: Why would they fight for Bin Laden if they weren't supporters of Bin Laden before 9/11? How would a retaliation be used for recruitment purposes? If you didn't support Bin Laden than most would understand the reason for retaliation.

Many of the US units that have deployed to Bosnia and Kosovo over the past 10 years are exactly the same type of units that have been deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan. They are ground combat brigades that can engage in major war fighting if necessary. The combat brigades consist of armored brigades, mechanized infantry brigades, and light infantry brigades. The only distinction that you could draw is that only light infantry brigades have been sent into Afghanistan at this point, do to the more difficult terrain and the difficult logistical requirements that require nearly all supplies to be airlifted in to the country.

Well once again this doesn't really address the issue. Bosnia isn't exactly the perfect example of nation building. But the truth is, like I said many of the generals have admitted this themselves, they really aren't trained or equipped for nation building.
 
This is in some ways the most revealing statement written by Obama. He still cannot bring himself to say that the mission in Iraq is success, even when success is clearly within our grasp. For Obama the mission is, and since his presidential announcement in February 2007 has been, to end the war, even if it means an American loss of epic proportions. And if Obama had had his way, that is exactly what would have come to pass.

Wrong. Ending the war does not mean admitting defeat (though that is very telling of your mentality here). Setting a timetable is not admitting defeat. I can't believe this actually has to be explained. Giving the Iraqis a clear timeline to accelerate their political progress is not admitting defeat. Malaki wants a timetable. Even the Bush administration is making movements towards an accelerated drawback of troops, and they've even danced around the word "timetable" in recent days.

Ending a war does not equal losing a war.
 
Oh grow up.

Well to Sting's credit, maybe he is on to something here. If you think about it Conservative Disney World would be pretty boring.

A quarter of the characters would be removed due to fear of being gay.
It's a small world would kick out all the immigrants.
Rides would be shut down due to being too sexual.
And the only music they would have is Ted Nugent.

:shrug:
 
Obama has always wanted a timed, cautious withdrawal over a period of months (not years, or decades). Obama has always said that the general timeframe for this will be about 18 months (give or taken, depending on conditions and logistics, which only makes sense).


No, no, no! It's withdrawal "without preconditions and regardless of the situation on the ground" (or something like that). That phrase is very important, you see. It frames the argument, and our GOP operative on the forum is a master of framing the argument in ways that serve his interests.
 
Wow, that didn't even come close to addressing the issue I was discussing, do you read the posts you reply to? This has nothing to do with why so many mention 9/11, war on terror, satellite footage, etc as to why we're over there.

For that, you don't need to look any further than Democrats who like to cherry pick Bush speeches on the war and frabicate what the administration central case for the war was.

But the administrations central case for removing Saddam was laid down in UN security council resolution 1441 and the congressional resolution in October 2002 both authorizing military action. 9/11, war on terror, and this satellite footage were not mentioned at all in the UN resolution and were certainly not the central case made in the congressional resolution authorizing the President to take military action against Iraq.


Why would they fight for Bin Laden if they weren't supporters of Bin Laden before 9/11?

You were the one who claimed the invasion of Iraq had caused all these people who were not previously apart of Al Quada prior to 9/11 to join the terrorist group.

How would a retaliation be used for recruitment purposes?

The same way a UN authorized invasion of Iraq to insure the security and stability of the region could be used for recruitment purposes.

If you didn't support Bin Laden than most would understand the reason for retaliation.

If you didn't support Saddam then most should understand given the circumstances why the UN authorized invasion of Iraq was necessary. Whats the logic in fighting for Bin Ladin because of the removal of Saddam when one did not previously support Bin Ladin?

Bosnia isn't exactly the perfect example of nation building.

Lets see, we have a country that was ripped apart by a real civil war between 3 different ethnic groups with nearly 10% of the entire population be killed in just the space of 4 years. If that had happened in Iraq, over 3 million people would have been killed the past 5 years.

But within two years of US military action and the deployment of a US heavy armored division into Bosnia, U2 came to town with their POPMART show. Today, formally war torn Bosnia has a standard of living higher than Brazil or Russia.

Bosnia is the best example of successful nation building over the past 15 years.

But the truth is, like I said many of the generals have admitted this themselves, they really aren't trained or equipped for nation building.

It may not be their first mission, but its something they successfully did in Bosnia and Kosovo and are currently doing in Iraq and Afghanistan. There is no other organization that is properly equipped to handle nation building in an unstable war zone than the military.
 
Wrong. Ending the war does not mean admitting defeat (though that is very telling of your mentality here). Setting a timetable is not admitting defeat. I can't believe this actually has to be explained. Giving the Iraqis a clear timeline to accelerate their political progress is not admitting defeat. Malaki wants a timetable. Even the Bush administration is making movements towards an accelerated drawback of troops, and they've even danced around the word "timetable" in recent days.

Ending a war does not equal losing a war.

Ending the war by removing all combat troops by March 2008, four months ago, would not have been good for America or Iraq. Opposing the troop surge, it has turned out, would not have been good for America or Iraq.
 
Wrong. Ending the war does not mean admitting defeat (though that is very telling of your mentality here). Setting a timetable is not admitting defeat. I can't believe this actually has to be explained. Giving the Iraqis a clear timeline to accelerate their political progress is not admitting defeat. Malaki wants a timetable. Even the Bush administration is making movements towards an accelerated drawback of troops, and they've even danced around the word "timetable" in recent days.

Ending a war does not equal losing a war.

By the way that came from article by Peter Wehner.

Has Barack Obama ever had as a prerequisite to withdrawing from Iraq, the security and stability of the country as well as the proper capability of the Iraqi military? No

When Barack Obama talks about ending the war, he is primarily talking about ending US involvement in the war, withdrawing all US troops.

The key difference between where the Iraqi's, Bush, and McCain are on withdrawal and where Obama is on withdrawal, is that Obama insist on a withdrawal without any prerequisites or conditions. Its something he has stated would start immediately without any prerequisites and that has not been the position of Bush, McCain, the US military or the Iraqi government.
 
I give up, not sure why I even engaged.

Sting, you once again ignored most of the issues that I actually brought up and since we're off topic I'm going to stop.
 
Ah, this is it:

"without any prerequisites or conditions"

That's the phrase. . .
 
Obama insist on a withdrawal without any prerequisites or conditions.

This is false. His speech, the one your previous posted article responded to, says he would take into consideration conditions on the ground. Now that you're using a demonstrably false talking point, care to respond without talking about a lack of prerequisites or conditions?
 
Harry Vest

this one's for you :wink:

Clinton: GOP Should Apologize to America

By Perry Bacon Jr.

Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton has a new stump speech. In Chicago Saturday for the American Federation of Teachers conference, Clinton praised Sen. Barack Obama, used humor to poke at President Bush, Sen. John McCain and the GOP, and sounded wistful about her own presidential run.

Obama was also in Chicago on Saturday, and addressed the conference by satellite today. But Clinton, who received the AFT's backing during the primary, appeared in Obama's hometown yesterday to speak highly of her former rival before an audience of her supporters.

"I can't wait to see Barack raise his hand, take that oath of office and get to work," she told several thousand educators at the conference.

And she jabbed at the Republicans, using a line that drew such applause when Clinton used it earlier this week in New York that Obama borrowed it when he spoke at an event without Clinton on Thursday in Virginia.

"Our president goes to Japan four months before the election that will finally show him the door and says he's going to take global warming seriously," Clinton said. "Then as he's leaving the G-8 conference, says to people around him, 'Goodbye from the biggest polluter world in the world.' You've got to ask yourself, how did this happen to our country?"

Clinton said the last eight years had many "highlights."

"A vice-president who shoots somebody in the face, you couldn't make that up," Clinton said to laughter.

She added, "the Republicans should hold a press conference and apologize to the country and say they're just not going to run anyone for president."
 
No, no, no! It's withdrawal "without preconditions and regardless of the situation on the ground" (or something like that). That phrase is very important, you see. It frames the argument, and our GOP operative on the forum is a master of framing the argument in ways that serve his interests.




and too bad that Obama said the following in October of 2006:

I am not suggesting this timetable be overly rigid. ... The redeployment could be temporarily suspended if the parties in Iraq reach an effective political arrangement that stabilizes the situation and offers us a clear and compelling rationale for maintaining current troop levels. ... In such a scenario, it is conceivable that a significantly reduced U.S. force might remain in Iraq for a more extended period of time.
 
This is false. His speech, the one your previous posted article responded to, says he would take into consideration conditions on the ground. Now that you're using a demonstrably false talking point, care to respond without talking about a lack of prerequisites or conditions?


My guess is he's going to explain how in fact Obama will NOT take into consideration conditions on the ground regardless of what he said and go back to talking about a lack of prerequisites or conditions.

Strongbow/STING2 is nothing if not the most consistently "on-message" poster in all of FYM.

Wait for it. . .
 
once again, the Republicans are following Obama's lead and trying to claim it as their own ...


McCain Will Call for a Surge of Troops to Afghanistan

By ELI LAKE, Staff Reporter of the Sun | July 15, 2008


WASHINGTON — Senator McCain will announce plans today for an Iraq-style "surge" of troops in Afghanistan.

An adviser to the campaign told The New York Sun that, in a speech to be delivered in Albuquerque, N.M., the senator will call for an increase in combat troops and the creation of a special Afghanistan tsar to coordinate policy toward the country. "There will be a surge for Afghanistan. It will be moving combat troops in and applying the lessons from Iraq and the strategy that was successful in Iraq and taking that to Afghanistan," this official said.

Mr. McCain has been reluctant to discuss in public what he would do with Afghanistan's neighbor, Pakistan, where reserve Taliban fighters in the tens of thousands are said to reside unmolested in safe havens created after the Pakistani national army stopped fighting a counterinsurgency in these tribal areas. Mr. McCain has said he will not telegraph what his strategy would be as commander in chief toward this sensitive diplomatic and military problem.

Senator Obama has since August 2007 called for the deployment of at least two additional brigades to Afghanistan and has said he will work to cajole the Pakistani military into fighting again.

Mr. Obama's Afghanistan policy was referenced in an op-ed piece by Mr. Obama in the New York Times that reiterated the Democrat's pledge to begin the withdrawal of all combat troops from Iraq within 16 months of taking office. Mr. Obama appeared to be moving away from that stance earlier this month when he announced he would be visiting Iraq to meet with military commanders there, and would be refining his earlier position based on their input.

Mr. Obama has not called his plan for Afghanistan a "surge," the term the White House used for the deployment of more than 30,000 troops to Iraq in 2007. But the idea of an Afghan surge was first broached by a Republican rival of Mr. McCain during the primaries, Mayor Giuliani, who called in early January at a speech in New Hampshire for doubling the number of troops in Afghanistan. At the time there were 25,000 American troops in the country. Today there are approximately 33,000 troops in Afghanistan, compared to more than 150,000 in Iraq.

Mr. Giuliani's director for foreign policy, Charles Hill, in an interview yesterday said it is difficult for presidential candidates to come up with a specific number of additional troops for Afghanistan. "There are a maelstrom of numbers and estimates you can get from the Pentagon on this. Remember there are American troops, but there are also NATO forces. At the end of the day, the next president will have to rely on the commanders in the field," Mr. Hill said.

Mr. Hill, who was executive assistant to Secretary of State Shultz and is currently a professor of grand strategy at Yale, said the success of American arms in Iraq makes possible more deployments to Afghanistan. "The Iraq war is over. Wars don't come to an end the way they used to. It ended as best it can end about last December. The front has shifted to the Afghan-Pakistan border. We've chased them into that corner. That is a very different situation and difficult to handle because of the border and because the terrorists have a sanctuary there. We can't get into that sanctuary, but Pakistan does not govern it. It is a black hole in the map of world order," he said.

Mr. Hill went on to say that the exact tactics that were successful in Iraq would not necessarily apply to Afghanistan. "The surge in Iraq was really a version of clear, hold, and build. When you take territory, you hold it to keep the population secure, in some sense the people would do the rest. They would be entrepreneurial," he said. "We can't hold territory in the tribal areas of Pakistan, another way to make the surge workable on the ground has to be found, and that has to be in some form with the Pakistani military."

In the last two months the Afghan front has claimed more American soldiers than the one in Iraq. Nine American soldiers were killed over the weekend defending a base in the eastern Afghan province of Kunar from a Taliban assault. Last month, the Taliban pulled off a daring prison break near Kandahar. Last year, a national intelligence estimate on Al Qaeda said its leadership had reconstituted in the tribal provinces in Pakistan that border Afghanistan.
 
WASHINGTON — Senator McCain will announce plans today for an Iraq-style "surge" of troops in Afghanistan...


Wow, this really boggles the mind

McCain was always against that Iraq "surge" ????

now, he is citing it as a success :huh:

has he no shame :no:

What is McCain doing- some flip-flop thing ???


Next, he will be calling it refining..


I will not be surprised if we see his poll numbers go down
 
Wow, this really boggles the mind

McCain was always against that Iraq "surge" ????

now, he is citing it as a success :huh:

has he no shame :no:

What is McCain doing- some flip-flop thing ???


Next, he will be calling it refining..


I will not be surprised if we see his poll numbers go down




Obama has been stressing, for years, that more troops were needed in Afghanistan. McCain is following.

where is he going to get the troops from? the "victory" in Iraq? i guess we won't get all that freed up capital to balance the budget by the end of his first term then, huh.
 
I don't think that more troops in Afghanistan would be very helpful when you have Zarqawi presiding over Anbar with Iran, Saudi Arabia and Turkey occupying other parts of Iraq.
 
At some point, Democrats decided that facts didn’t matter anymore in Iraq. And they nominated just the man to reflect the party’s new anti-factual consensus on the war, a Barack Obama who has fixedly ignored changing conditions on the ground.

It’s gotten harder as the success of the surge has become undeniable, but — despite some wobbles — Obama is sticking to his plan for a 16-month timeline for withdrawal from Iraq. He musters dishonesty, evasion and straw-grasping to try to create a patina of respectability around a scandalously unserious position.

Obama spokesmen now say everyone knew that President Bush’s troop surge would create more security. This is blatantly false. Obama said in early 2007 that nothing in the surge plan would “make a significant dent in the sectarian violence,” and the new strategy would “not prove to be one that changes the dynamics significantly.” He referred to the surge derisively as “baby-sit(ting) a civil war.”

Now that the civil war has all but ended, he wants to claim retroactive clairvoyance. In a New York Times op-ed laying out his position, Obama credits the heroism of our troops and new tactics with bringing down the violence. Our troops have always been heroic; what made the difference was the surge strategy that Obama lacked the military judgment — or political courage — to support.

In his oped, Obama states that “the same factors that led me to oppose the surge still hold true,” citing the strain on the military, the deterioration in Afghanistan and the fiscal drain. All of those are important, but pale compared with the achievement in Iraq — beating back al-Qaida and Iranian-backed militias, and restoring a semblance of order to a country on the verge of a collapse from which only our enemies could have benefited.

Politically, Obama has to notionally support defeating al-Qaeda in Iraq, so even after he’s executed his 16-month withdrawal, he says there will be a “residual force” of American troops to take on “remnants of al-Qaida.” How can he be so sure there will only be “remnants”? If there are, it will be because the surge Obama opposed has pushed al-Qaeda to the brink. The more precipitously we withdraw our troops, the more likely al-Qaeda is to mount a comeback.

Obama treats as a vindication a recent statement by Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki calling for a timeline for withdrawal of U.S. forces. But Maliki, playing to his domestic politic audience, can’t be taken at face value. Neither Maliki nor anyone around him talks of an unconditional 16-month timeline for withdrawal as being remotely plausible. His defense minister says Iraqis will be ready to handle internal security on their own in 2012 and external security by 2020.

The Iraqis most enthusiastic about Obama’s plan surely are al-Qaeda members, Sadrists, Iranian agents and sectarian killers of every stripe. The prospect of an American president suddenly letting up on them has to be the best cause for hope they’ve had in months. Obama’s withdrawal would immediately embolden every malign actor in Iraq, and increase their sway in Iraqi politics.

In his oped, Obama sticks to the badly dated contention that Iraqis “have not reached the political accommodation that was the stated purpose of the surge.” In fact, roughly 15 of 18 political benchmarks have been met by the Iraqis — progress Obama threatens to reverse.

Obama loves to say that we have to withdraw from Iraq “responsibly.” There’s nothing responsible about his plan. According to U.S. commanders on the ground, it may not even be logistically possible. Does Obama even care? He says that when he’s elected he’d give the military a new mission — to end the war. Conditions in Iraq, let alone winning, are marginalia.

There are two possible interpretations — either Obama is dangerously sincere, or he’s a cynical operator playing duplicitous politics with matters of war and peace. Watch this space.
Rich Lowry on Barack Obama & Iraq on National Review Online

Obviously Obama is supported by terrorists, and I have it on the authority of a high profile magazine that he is in fact a terrorist.
 
two things struck me:
Now that the civil war has all but ended,

so the Right is admitting this now?

and:

the achievement in Iraq — beating back al-Qaida and Iranian-backed militias, and restoring a semblance of order to a country on the verge of a collapse from which only our enemies could have benefited.

so ... did any of this, *any* of it, exist before the invasion and failed occupation?
 
so ... did any of this, *any* of it, exist before the invasion and failed occupation?
Have your cake and eat it too, the failed occupation has created a situation that allows troops to leave without the country imploding.

As far as the existence of sectarian militias and collapse I think that the inevitable death of Saddam would have manifested them with or without America around.
 
Have your cake and eat it too, the failed occupation has created a situation that allows troops to leave without the country imploding.

and the success of "the surge" makes it impossible to leave?


As far as the existence of sectarian militias and collapse I think that the inevitable death of Saddam would have manifested them with or without America around.

it would have gone to one of the boys, who would have faced a coup, and it would have fallen into the hands of another strongman.

there's be violence. but not 6 bonecrushing years of it.
 
News circulated fast late Tuesday afternoon that back in 1986, during his initial run for the Senate, John McCain allegedly told a crude joke about rape involving a woman's affection for an ape.

The story, which was reprised on the blog Rum, Romanism and Rebellion before being blasted out by Think Progress, goes like this: In an appearance before the National League of Cities and Towns in Washington D.C., McCain supposedly asked the crowd if they had heard "the one about the woman who is attacked on the street by a gorilla, beaten senseless, raped repeatedly and left to die?"

The punch line: "When she finally regains consciousness and tries to speak, her doctor leans over to hear her sigh contently and to feebly ask, "Where is that marvelous ape?"

Eeeshh. The joke, as one can imagine, did not go over well with various women's groups, which responded with indignation. But the McCain campaign denied that he had ever said the offensive gag.

"It's pretty obvious to us that this is a politically motivated sideshow," Torrie Clarke, McCain's spokeswoman at the time, said back in 1986. Till this day it has never been proven definitively true or false whether the Senator ever said the line.

The Huffington Post reached out to the original reporter in that story, Norma Coile (who wrote about the response to the rape joke in the Tuscon Citizen) to find out if she thought it was true.

"I'm not sure exactly what the wording was of the joke, but something was said. Some joke involving a rape and ape was said. Enough women repeated it to me at the time and the McCain campaign had a non-denial denial," said Coile, now with the Arizona Daily Star. "It came after his 'Seizure World' joke, in which he referred to the [retirement community] Leisure World as Seizure World... I just think it reinforced this idea that John McCain is humor-challenged. Whatever his qualities, he seems to have a tin ear for how these jokes will go over."

Indeed, while this anecdote occurred more than 20 years ago, McCain has occasionally found himself with his foot in his mouth throughout his time in public office. Back in 1998, he odiously declared before a GOP crowd: "Why is Chelsea Clinton so ugly? Because her father is Janet Reno."

More recently he joked that it might be good for the United States to keep exporting cigarettes to Iran as cancer would prove an effective weapon against that country's citizens.

But venturing into the extremely sensitive subject of rape and humor is not something that - even 22 years later - will endear McCain to the women voters his campaign has sought to recruit. And organizations in Arizona that weighed in on that 1986 line see it as another example of the Senator not being sensitive to female issues and concerns.

"I don't think we can say one example like that is indicative of someone's character. But certainly I think John McCain has made lots of quotes where he says jokes like that," said Linda Barter, head of the Arizona Women's Political Caucus, which objected to McCain's joke at the time. "Our organizational purpose, however, is to increase the number of elected and appointed women, and we support pro-choice women, so there is certainly a division there. John McCain has not been pro-choice or supportive of issues related to women's reproductive health."
 
i honestly don't care all that much if McCain tells bad jokes. i don't think McCain thinks rape is funny, and i think he'd agree, today, that the joke is offensive.

what i do take from this, however, is how shocking it is to hear what passed (or still passes) for humor amongst men of a certain age. the fact that one would make rape jokes in open company speaks to the kind of world -- and the men in it -- that i'm amazed women had to deal with as recently as the 1980s.
 
I don't care that he tells bad jokes either, and I'm quite sure he doesn't think rape is funny. But he should have the judgment not to make certain statements as "jokes", and he still doesn't-as witnessed multiple times. It's like "old guy thinks he's funny" and everybody laughs it off. If Sen Obama said similar things he'd be vilified for it.

It's not just the 80's, some men still make rape jokes in open company.
 
I don't care that he tells bad jokes either, and I'm quite sure he doesn't think rape is funny. But he should have the judgment not to make certain statements as "jokes", and he still doesn't-as witnessed multiple times. It's like "old guy thinks he's funny" and everybody laughs it off. If Sen Obama said similar things he'd be vilified for it.


i agree. i guess i'm just amazed that it was once considered okay to make rape jokes. it boggles my mind.



It's not just the 80's, some men still make rape jokes in open company.


i honestly have never heard one. but i'm much yonger than McCain.
 
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