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Old 07-25-2008, 01:11 PM   #946
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From what I gather, it's not that he wasn't allowed to go. It's that he couldn't bring staff and press with him. I don't see why he couldn't have gone by himself.
Well actually it's not very clear. But if you were to take it literally from the press release he could have taken press, but not staff... But then again what was he suppose to do? Leave them on the runway?


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"I speak to you not as a candidate for President, but as a citizen."
You have a very odd way of twisting things. It's almost as if you go out of your way...
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Old 07-25-2008, 01:31 PM   #947
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From what I gather, it's not that he wasn't allowed to go. It's that he couldn't bring staff and press with him. I don't see why he couldn't have gone by himself.

"I speak to you not as a candidate for President, but as a citizen."
And I thought German students did poorly in reading comprehension.
You know, even in tiny Germany there is some distance between places. Berlin is in the north east, Ramstein in the south west. How should he have gone there for just the visit without bringing his staff?
He also didn't work out in the Ritz, that was what he did yesterday, he spent the morning at the Adlon doing interviews before taking off to Paris.
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Old 07-25-2008, 01:38 PM   #948
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Berlin is in the north east, Ramstein in the south west. How should he have gone there for just the visit without bringing his staff?
Well if you people weren't such unexceptional socailists you would have found a way.
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Old 07-25-2008, 02:22 PM   #949
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For all those interested in a biography of Obam-uh, this is pretty accurate.

He ventured forth to bring light to the world | Gerard Baker - Times Online

He ventured forth to bring light to the world

And it came to pass, in the eighth year of the reign of the evil Bush the Younger (The Ignorant), when the whole land from the Arabian desert to the shores of the Great Lakes had been laid barren, that a Child appeared in the wilderness.

The Child was blessed in looks and intellect. Scion of a simple family, offspring of a miraculous union, grandson of a typical white person and an African peasant. And yea, as he grew, the Child walked in the path of righteousness, with only the occasional detour into the odd weed and a little blow.

When he was twelve years old, they found him in the temple in the City of Chicago, arguing the finer points of community organisation with the Prophet Jeremiah and the Elders. And the Elders were astonished at what they heard and said among themselves: “Verily, who is this Child that he opens our hearts and minds to the audacity of hope?”

In the great Battles of Caucus and Primary he smote the conniving Hillary, wife of the deposed King Bill the Priapic and their barbarian hordes of Working Class Whites.

And so it was, in the fullness of time, before the harvest month of the appointed year, the Child ventured forth - for the first time - to bring the light unto all the world.

He travelled fleet of foot and light of camel, with a small retinue that consisted only of his loyal disciples from the tribe of the Media. He ventured first to the land of the Hindu Kush, where the

Taleban had harboured the viper of al-Qaeda in their bosom, raining terror on all the world.

And the Child spake and the tribes of Nato immediately loosed the Caveats that had previously bound them. And in the great battle that ensued the forces of the light were triumphant. For as long as the Child stood with his arms raised aloft, the enemy suffered great blows and the threat of terror was no more.

From there he went forth to Mesopotamia where he was received by the great ruler al-Maliki, and al-Maliki spake unto him and blessed his Sixteen Month Troop Withdrawal Plan even as the imperial warrior Petraeus tried to destroy it.

And lo, in Mesopotamia, a miracle occurred. Even though the Great Surge of Armour that the evil Bush had ordered had been a terrible mistake, a waste of vital military resources and doomed to end in disaster, the Child's very presence suddenly brought forth a great victory for the forces of the light.

And the Persians, who saw all this and were greatly fearful, longed to speak with the Child and saw that the Child was the bringer of peace. At the mention of his name they quickly laid aside their intrigues and beat their uranium swords into civil nuclear energy ploughshares.

From there the Child went up to the city of Jerusalem, and entered through the gate seated on an ass. The crowds of network anchors who had followed him from afar cheered “Hosanna” and waved great palm fronds and strewed them at his feet.

In Jerusalem and in surrounding Palestine, the Child spake to the Hebrews and the Arabs, as the Scripture had foretold. And in an instant, the lion lay down with the lamb, and the Israelites and Ishmaelites ended their long enmity and lived for ever after in peace.

As word spread throughout the land about the Child's wondrous works, peoples from all over flocked to hear him; Hittites and Abbasids; Obamacons and McCainiacs; Cameroonians and Blairites.

And they told of strange and wondrous things that greeted the news of the Child's journey. Around the world, global temperatures began to decline, and the ocean levels fell and the great warming was over.

The Great Prophet Algore of Nobel and Oscar, who many had believed was the anointed one, smiled and told his followers that the Child was the one generations had been waiting for.

And there were other wonderful signs. In the city of the Street at the Wall, spreads on interbank interest rates dropped like manna from Heaven and rates on credit default swaps fell to the ground as dead birds from the almond tree, and the people who had lived in foreclosure were able to borrow again.

Black gold gushed from the ground at prices well below $140 per barrel. In hospitals across the land the sick were cured even though they were uninsured. And all because the Child had pronounced it.

And this is the testimony of one who speaks the truth and bears witness to the truth so that you might believe. And he knows it is the truth for he saw it all on CNN and the BBC and in the pages of The New York Times.

Then the Child ventured forth from Israel and Palestine and stepped onto the shores of the Old Continent. In the land of Queen Angela of Merkel, vast multitudes gathered to hear his voice, and he preached to them at length.

But when he had finished speaking his disciples told him the crowd was hungry, for they had had nothing to eat all the hours they had waited for him.

And so the Child told his disciples to fetch some food but all they had was five loaves and a couple of frankfurters. So he took the bread and the frankfurters and blessed them and told his disciples to feed the multitudes. And when all had eaten their fill, the scraps filled twelve baskets.

Thence he travelled west to Mount Sarkozy. Even the beauteous Princess Carla of the tribe of the Bruni was struck by awe and she was great in love with the Child, but he was tempted not.

On the Seventh Day he walked across the Channel of the Angles to the ancient land of the hooligans. There he was welcomed with open arms by the once great prophet Blair and his successor, Gordon the Leper, and his successor, David the Golden One.

And suddenly, with the men appeared the archangel Gabriel and the whole host of the heavenly choir, ranks of cherubim and seraphim, all praising God and singing: “Yes, We Can.”
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Old 07-25-2008, 02:44 PM   #950
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Just a suggestion and feel free to ignore it, but maybe we could start another Iraq debate thread and continue discussion about that topic there so that it becomes more clear again?
Please, let's.
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Old 07-25-2008, 02:52 PM   #951
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it's amazing how someone can write so much, be so self-impressed, and fail to actually address anything.
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Old 07-25-2008, 03:03 PM   #952
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I'll create a new thread for debate on the candidates' Iraq policies, but I'm not going to attempt to split off everything Iraq-related from this one, as it's scattered through two-thirds of the thread.

I keep hoping people will recognize that this particular 'debate' is not in any sense functioning as an actual dialogue in here, and give up on it, but I guess that's not going to happen.

I could split off a few pages' worth of Iraq posts from here and move them to the new thread, if people want that; not entirely sure where a good post to start splitting from might be, though.
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Old 07-25-2008, 03:48 PM   #953
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Old 07-25-2008, 08:37 PM   #954
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The Barack Obama-John McCain Race Is Too Close to Call
July 25, 2008 05:08 PM ET

If anyone tells you that they know who, between Sen. Barack Obama and Sen. John McCain, is going to win in November, that person is a seer, a drunk, or delusional. From where I sit, there are strong arguments for an Obama victory this year, there are strong arguments for a tossup, and there are increasingly strong arguments for a McCain squeaker victory.

What else could explain yesterday's Quinnipiac poll showing McCain gaining in the important swing states of Colorado, Michigan, and Minnesota?

Arizona Sen. John McCain has inched ahead of Illinois Sen. Barack Obama in Colorado; come within inches in Minnesota and narrowed the gap in Michigan and Wisconsin, according to four simultaneous Quinnipiac University polls of likely voters in these battleground states, conducted in partnership with The Wall Street Journal and washingtonpost.com and released today.

The Colorado poll, in particular, is problematic for the Obama campaign, since Democrats have great hopes this year of making headway in traditionally Republican western states.
.

McCain has a real shot at an Electoral College win
and popular vote loss. Perhaps even more than the margin that W loss to Gore back in 2000.
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Old 07-25-2008, 09:04 PM   #955
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.

McCain has a real shot at an Electoral College win
and popular vote loss. Perhaps even more than the margin that W loss to Gore back in 2000.
I think that's definitely a possibility. That Quinnipiac poll shows Obama up 46-44 in Minnesota. It was a 17 point advantage a few weeks ago. Maybe Pawlenty might be a good choice?
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Old 07-26-2008, 03:22 AM   #956
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Pride Clouds Obama's Vision

By Kathleen Parker

WASHINGTON -- Barack Obama concedes that America's troops have contributed to improvements on the ground in Iraq, but he still stands by his vote against the surge.

Why not just admit that he was wrong?

Come on, senator, this is a lot easier than changing churches. Say: "As a proud American, I'm delighted that the surge has worked so we can move forward with my timetable for withdrawal. Look, if I'd known how successful it was going to be, I would have voted for it. At the time it didn't seem like a good bet, but prognosticators go broke in wartime."

See, that wasn't so bad.

Instead, Obama says that even knowing what he now knows, he still would have voted against the surge. Really? Even knowing that without the surge, he couldn't have safely visited Iraq?

Obama insists that, hypothetically, his own plan might have worked better than the surge: "We don't know what would have happened if I, if the plan that I put forward in January 2007, to put more pressure on the Iraqis to arrive at a political reconciliation, to begin a phased withdrawal, what would have happened had we pursued that strategy."

But we do know. Or at least we can wager with some confidence that had we withdrawn within 14 months, as Obama was proposing at the time -- before Sunni Arabs, once the insurgency's backbone, felt sufficiently secure to turn against the jihadists -- Iraq today would be in bloody chaos, al-Qaeda victorious, and the U.S. further diminished in the Arab world.

Obama voted against the surge, he said then, because he was convinced that inserting 20,000 more troops into Iraq was likely to make things worse, not better. Now trying to justify that miscall, he says he couldn't have anticipated the Sunni Awakening.

Wait. Obama could anticipate that the war in Iraq would go badly. He could anticipate that the surge wouldn't work. But he couldn't anticipate that the Sunnis would turn on al-Qaeda?

Actually, Obama had more information at his fingertips in assessing the probability of the surge's success than he did for any of his other predictions, including assurance from commanders on the ground that local tribal leaders were showing a willingness to take on al-Qaeda.

Most Americans, including many in Congress who approved the Iraq invasion, say that if they'd known then what they know now, they wouldn't have supported the war. Why is it so hard for Obama, knowing what he knows now, to say that he should have supported the surge?

To review Obama's statements on the surge since it began is to understand why: pride.

Over and over again -- even after Gen. David Petraeus reported in late 2007 that the surge was working -- Obama said: It's not working. It won't work. It's a mistake. He essentially was betting his presidential hopes on the surge's failure.

But the surge did work -- and the mistake is Obama's.

Most Americans would have little trouble forgiving Obama for not believing the surge would be effective. It was a gamble, as are all strategies in war. Even with reports on the ground that locals seemed increasingly willing to rise up, there was reason enough by 2007 to doubt the wisdom of America's commander in chief.

It is less easy to forgive the kind of wrongheaded stubbornness now on display. As recently as July 14, Obama wrote in a New York Times op-ed that "the same factors that led me to oppose the surge still hold true." He mentioned the deteriorating situation in Afghanistan, money spent in Iraq and said that the surge had failed to produce "political accommodation."

Fine. But the larger, more important point is that the surge was necessary and successful. Those facts outweigh all other considerations past and present. Moreover, a recent U.S. Embassy report stated that 15 of 18 benchmarks set by Congress for Iraq are being met in a "satisfactory" fashion.

Obama has fallen to pride in part because he has bought his own myth. By staking his future on a past of supernatural vision, he has made it difficult to admit human fault. The magic isn't working anymore. And Obama, the visionary one, can't even see what everyone else sees: He was wrong.
I'm not sure I want to take a chance another President that is not capable of admitting a mistake.
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Old 07-26-2008, 10:35 AM   #957
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I think that's definitely a possibility. That Quinnipiac poll shows Obama up 46-44 in Minnesota. It was a 17 point advantage a few weeks ago. Maybe Pawlenty might be a good choice?


i still think that nobody knows anything.

most polls show Obama with a close to 10 point lead in MN.
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Old 07-26-2008, 11:19 AM   #958
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Last night Glenn Beck said he thinks Senator Obama is a Marxist and a Globalist

Can I block him using parental controls?

And O'Reilly was at the Red Sox game last night with some woman, my friend said she thinks has seen her on TV but I never saw them during the game (even though they showed them on NESN) and I'm dying to know who it was. Nothing to do with this thread/stream of consciousness
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Old 07-26-2008, 11:52 AM   #959
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I say Glenn Beck is a nazi.

Right? No! It's stupid black and white thinking they should rather keep to themselve.
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Old 07-26-2008, 12:28 PM   #960
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Last night Glenn Beck said he thinks Senator Obama is a Marxist and a Globalist
Where do think 2861 gets it from?

It's the new right. Extreme right-wing nationalism. What better to unite them, but a black liberal...
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