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Old 07-01-2008, 10:33 PM   #331
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I ask you again, HAVE YOU READ HIS BOOKS?



deep what really bugs me is that your over the top, histrionic reactions to just about every single thing about Obama makes me really just want to skip over your posts. Because they read like a hell of a lot of outrage for the sake of being outraged and little substance to boot. I've articulated a number of times what things I disagreed with him on. This tax thing is one. I also said multiple times (and was one of the only people here to do so, I might add) that Hillary's healthcare plan was better than his was. I have no problem criticizing Obama, I'm not some moron groupie. But I really always respected and appreciated your posts. It's just that lately, they've lapsed into a hysteria that I honestly don't comprehend at all. It could be that there is something thought-provoking in them, but frankly, I don't have enough hours in a day to bother and cut through your "the sky is falling because of Obama" routine.
alright,

I am sorry I said

"FFS"

It sounds better when you say it.



It seems like most people in here see this election as a clear choice.

Right now, I am only at about 55% leaning to vote for McCain.

A few couple of weeks back, I was leaning to voting for Obama.

My biggest hesitation on Obama, is that there is not any real track record.

His lack of executive experience. When people bring up "race" with me they are so off base. I support affirmative action. I know that people of color, and women are not given equal opportunities.

I also know for these things to get better, we need to have role models from those groups.

I have not read his books. I have not read McCain's books, or Clinton's books.

I have read quite a bit about all of these people and parts from their books.

Honestly, I don't put a lot of credit in these books. W could have had a wonderful book put together in 2000. I still knew I did not want to vote for him.

He had no track record or experience that impressed me at all. His Governorship of Texas was unremarkable.

W has always been in favor of faith based programs, and I know he was pandering for their support.

So, it is in Obama's book. It still can fit the definition of pandering, or smart campaigning.
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Old 07-01-2008, 10:34 PM   #332
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This is tricky for Obama. I'm not sure what to make of this "move to the center." I've said before that I think he's actually more centrist than a lot on the left think he is. But at the same time a lot of his recent statements sound a lot like pandering to me. So it's hard to say.

One thing Obama has always been about--that I felt made him different--is about listening to both sides of an issue, talking with the "enemy" and seeing the valid points they may have. Especially in our sound-bite culture this can easily be misinterpreted as being wishy-washy, or pandering. Worse, there is a very real temptation to use that ability to genuinely listen to and identify with different points of view to manipulate people or curry favor. I think that, more than mere, pandering, is the trap Obama may be falling in to.
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Old 07-02-2008, 08:52 AM   #333
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So I guess Geena Davis helped Sen Clinton too

RENO, Nevada (AP) -- Dennis Haysbert likes to believe his portrayal as the first African-American U.S. president on Fox's "24" may have helped pave the way for Barack Obama.

"If anything, my portrayal of David Palmer, I think, may have helped open the eyes of the American people," said the actor, who has contributed $2,300 to the Illinois Democrat's presidential campaign.

"And I mean the American people from across the board -- from the poorest to the richest, every color and creed, every religious base -- to prove the possibility there could be an African-American president, a female president, any type of president that puts the people first," he said Tuesday.

Haysbert, who now stars on "The Unit" on CBS, made his comments to reporters during a teleconference call promoting the upcoming American Century Celebrity Golf Championship at Lake Tahoe.

Haysbert, who also played Nelson Mandela in the 2007 film "Goodbye Bafana," said his role as President Palmer seemed to "confuse people" who would approach him on the street "every day, almost every hour, and ask me to run."

"I still, even after three seasons into `The Unit' playing Sgt. Maj. Jonas Blaine, I'm still asked by people on the street to run," he said.

Haysbert, 54, said he recently stopped for dinner south of Los Angeles with his daughter in Dana Point, Calif., a town he described as "very wealthy, very white and very Republican."

"I go into this little restaurant with that demographic and a lady comes up to me and says, `You know, I want to vote for you,"' he said. "I don't know if it is a joke or that people just like to say those things. But to me, for them to say it out loud means they are thinking about it."
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Old 07-02-2008, 10:21 AM   #334
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In other news. 100 percent of respondents wouldn't even invite GWB over to clean their toilets after the barbecue..

Obama would get more barbecue invitations than McCain

WASHINGTON (AP) — People would rather barbecue burgers with Barack than munch meats with McCain.

While many are still deciding which should be president, by 52 percent to 45 percent they would prefer having Barack Obama than John McCain to their summer cookout, according to an Associated Press-Yahoo! News poll released Wednesday.

Men are about evenly divided between the two while women prefer Obama by 11 percentage points. Whites prefer McCain, minorities Obama. And Obama is a more popular guest with younger voters while McCain does best with the oldest.

Having Obama to a barbecue would be like a relaxed family gathering, while inviting McCain "would be more like a retirement party than something fun," said Wesley Welbourne, 38, a systems engineer from Washington, D.C.

Party label means a lot, with three-quarters of Democrats picking the Democrat Obama and the same number of Republicans picking McCain, a Republican. Independents are about evenly split.

"John and I would probably have a lot to talk about," said Republican Michael Mullen, 53, of Merrimac, Mass., like McCain a Navy veteran.

One in six people saying they'd vote for McCain prefer Obama as their barbecue guest; just one in 20 Obama backers would invite McCain.

The AP-Yahoo! News survey of 1,759 adults was conducted online by Knowledge Networks from June 13-23 and had an overall margin of sampling error of plus or minus 2.3 percentage points. The margin of sampling error for subgroups was larger.
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Old 07-02-2008, 10:58 AM   #335
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It doesn't matter if he sincerely believes in faith-based initiatives, it doesn't even matter if they work better than other programs, all that matters is that funneling public funds to religious groups goes against what I consider the intent of a secularism. Religious charity should be funded from private donation not taxpayers money and I don't care if it is from the bigoted right-wing the feel good centre-left: it's wrong in principle.

Obama: Now, make no mistake, as someone who used to teach constitutional law, I believe deeply in the separation of church and state, but I don’t believe this partnership will endanger that idea – so long as we follow a few basic principles. First, if you get a federal grant, you can’t use that grant money to proselytize to the people you help and you can’t discriminate against them – or against the people you hire – on the basis of their religion. Second, federal dollars that go directly to churches, temples, and mosques can only be used on secular programs. And we’ll also ensure that taxpayer dollars only go to those programs that actually work.



Quote:
Are people so forgiving of George W. Bush's infusion of religiousity into politics? Or is his public faith somehow more insincere than someone that comes into a religious community as an adult and benefits from those connections (until of course that Church becomes a liability).

i think this is a situation where the messenger does matter. i'm wary of faith-based programs, but considering Obama's left-of-center track record, i don't think it's likely that he's going to use faith-based programs as a cover to, 1) slash government programs, 2) toss $$$ back to the Christianists who got Bush elected, 3) recruit more evangelicals who tend to be GOP voters.

so long as the secularism is absolutely maintained -- and this includes forbidding, say, Catholic adoption services from discriminating against gay couples -- i suppose this is something i can live with because the messenger -- a liberal Christian -- is fundamentally less scary than Bush's brand of Christianism where Dobson and Haggard got weekly phone calls with the president and input into potential SCOTUS nominees.

in principle, yes, this is an extention of Bush (and Clinton, for that matter). but the real world effects of this will be vastly different.

this is no Trojan Horse to dismantle social safety nets.

and this is smart politics. Obama has made huge, huge inroads with under-30 evangelicals who are disgusted by their parent's focus on abortion and hating gays at all costs. they are far, far more interested in the environment and reducing poverty than their parents. and Obama can talk to them in a way that Gore, Kerry, and McCain can't. and in a way that i couldn't. this culture is alien to me. but i suppose it doesn't have to be necessarily invidious.
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Old 07-02-2008, 11:01 AM   #336
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and as the polls go, as Obama tacks to the Right and goes after GOP groups like Evanglicals, his lead in the polls has solidified, his lead in the swing states has grown, Latinos have flocked to him in enormous numbers, and McCain can't seem to find a line of attack, and all the while the charge that he's "McSame as Bush" is starting to stick.

as it stands, here, in July, it's no wonder that this man beat the Clintons.

and deep, if you want to live in a world where abortion is legal, there is no option.

and to add, if i were voting on a resume, i'd have voted for Richardson. but for some of us, politics and especially the presidency, are more multi-dimensional than that.
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Old 07-02-2008, 11:08 AM   #337
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Stephen Baldwin On Fox News: If Obama Wins, I'll Leave The Country - Politics on The Huffington Post
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Old 07-02-2008, 11:10 AM   #338
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Originally Posted by A_Wanderer View Post
It doesn't matter if he sincerely believes in faith-based initiatives
No, Wanderer, it matters here because YOU posited that he is pandering. That was the crux and point of your post. The fact that he may sincerely believe in the initiatives clearly goes against your very argument.

So if you want to disagree with his position, then you should have done that rather than makign the argument that you made.
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Old 07-02-2008, 11:11 AM   #339
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Is he gonna take Babs with him?
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Old 07-02-2008, 11:12 AM   #340
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Old 07-02-2008, 11:12 AM   #341
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Didn't his older brother say the same thing about Bush winning last time? He's still here (and thank goodness, otherwise would we have his lol-worthiness on 30 Rock?).

But I certainly wouldn't miss this particular Baldwin.
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Old 07-02-2008, 11:14 AM   #342
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But what will happen to his Jesusmobile?
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Old 07-02-2008, 11:17 AM   #343
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One more thing-will you leave too deep?
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Old 07-02-2008, 11:54 AM   #344
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I just don't know what to do in November. Honestly, and this is gonna sound horrible, but I don't feel like voting for either candidate.

I really don't think McCain will be a Bush-lite, and Obama doesn't impress me either. Hell of a speaker though. He's still a politician and I really doubt his "change" will be much.

Both candidates provide change in that Bush will no longer be in charge. That alone should make this country better.
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Old 07-02-2008, 12:14 PM   #345
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I just don't know what to do in November. Honestly, and this is gonna sound horrible, but I don't feel like voting for either candidate.

I really don't think McCain will be a Bush-lite, and Obama doesn't impress me either. Hell of a speaker though. He's still a politician and I really doubt his "change" will be much.

Both candidates provide change in that Bush will no longer be in charge. That alone should make this country better.
I know how you feel. Right now I'm still planning to vote against the Republicans and that's the best I can do. I'm not convinced Obama can win, and if he does, I have low expectations of what he can accomplish. I wasn't exactly wild about Sen. Clinton but at least she was transparently what she is--a politician--and never pretended to be anything else. Obama pretends to be "different" and I think it's bullshit. Voting against the Republicans is better than staying home.
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