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Old 06-23-2008, 10:41 PM   #241
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Originally Posted by 2861U2 View Post
[url=http://blogs.suntimes.com/sweet/2008/06/obama_at_fundraiser_says_gop_w.html]
Disgraceful.

First off, this kind of nonsense will surely backfire on him. Saying stuff like this makes him appear as the victim, not a strong leader. Second, he himself denounces the so-called fearmongering that conservatives do, yet here he is doing the same thing. Notice how he clumps youth and inexperience, which are legitimate concerns about him, in with race. This is deliberate. He wants everyone to think that any attack directed at him is racially motivated- that it's impossible to say bad things about him without being a racist. Also, just like with the San Francisco "bitter" remarks, I've only been able to find audio of this- no video. This makes twice now. When the cameras are not around, we see who Obama really is and what he really thinks.

Have we heard Senator McCain say a peep about race in this campaign? No.

Playing the race card? Obama.


let's put aside how you think the remarks will be interpreted, and let's focus on the remarks themselves.

hasn't he just weathered 5 months of not one but two Clintons pointing at him and saying, in so many words, "he's black, he's black, he can't win because he's black, you know what the Republicans will do you know what they'll say you know they used the Willie Horton ad which was loaded with racism to defeat Dukakis and look at how they went after John Kerry with a Swift Boat of LIES in 2004. Obama's black, and they're going to use that against him, and you know, deep down, that this country is somewhat conservative and that most conservatives are racists. so vote for hillary. not because she's white, but because she's not black."

you mean to tell me that none of the Republican 527s are going to use race?

what Obama is doing is shrewd. he's framing the narrative. he's giving you a context through which to view the lies that are coming his way by the Republican right wing attack machine.

you might not like it, but it's, as always, very smart.

and as a Bush apologist, one would think you'd at least appreciate Machiavellian political maneuvers whenever you see them. after all, no one, ever, was lower than Rove. and you had no problem with that. why the problems now?
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Old 06-24-2008, 10:13 AM   #242
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Come on, read the quote again...
Sorry. Still Nothing. I'm just reading that radical Islam is the biggest threat this country faces. If people like you want to read more into that statement and pretend like McCain is trying to terrify people, then I can't help you.
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Old 06-24-2008, 10:20 AM   #243
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you mean to tell me that none of the Republican 527s are going to use race?
Honestly, yes. I don't believe they will.

And when we talk about these 527 groups, let's get real. There are far, far more Democratic/liberal groups than there are Republican/conservative ones. In the 2004 election, the top ten 527 groups that spent the most money were all Democratic ones, as were 17 of the top 20.

In the 2006 elections, 18 of the top 20 fundraising/spending groups were liberal.
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Old 06-24-2008, 10:21 AM   #244
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If people like you want to read more into that statement and pretend like McCain is trying to terrify people, then I can't help you.
"People like you"? What is that supposed to mean? He is trying to terrify people, and that strategy will continue. Even before Sen Clinton dropped out they were using that strategy with Obama, implying that he will be soft on terrorists. What about that infamous Bush quote? Come on.
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Old 06-24-2008, 10:22 AM   #245
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NY Times

June 24, 2008
Muslim Voters Detect a Snub From Obama
By ANDREA ELLIOTT

As Senator Barack Obama courted voters in Iowa last December, Representative Keith Ellison, the country’s first Muslim congressman, stepped forward eagerly to help.

Mr. Ellison believed that Mr. Obama’s message of unity resonated deeply with American Muslims. He volunteered to speak on Mr. Obama’s behalf at a mosque in Cedar Rapids, one of the nation’s oldest Muslim enclaves. But before the rally could take place, aides to Mr. Obama asked Mr. Ellison to cancel the trip because it might stir controversy. Another aide appeared at Mr. Ellison’s Washington office to explain.

“I will never forget the quote,” Mr. Ellison said, leaning forward in his chair as he recalled the aide’s words. “He said, ‘We have a very tightly wrapped message.’ ”

When Mr. Obama began his presidential campaign, Muslim Americans from California to Virginia responded with enthusiasm, seeing him as a long-awaited champion of civil liberties, religious tolerance and diplomacy in foreign affairs. But more than a year later, many say, he has not returned their embrace.

While the senator has visited churches and synagogues, he has yet to appear at a single mosque. Muslim and Arab-American organizations have tried repeatedly to arrange meetings with Mr. Obama, but officials with those groups say their invitations — unlike those of their Jewish and Christian counterparts — have been ignored. Last week, two Muslim women wearing head scarves were barred by campaign volunteers from appearing behind Mr. Obama at a rally in Detroit.

In interviews, Muslim political and civic leaders said they understood that their support for Mr. Obama could be a problem for him at a time when some Americans are deeply suspicious of Muslims. Yet those leaders nonetheless expressed disappointment and even anger at the distance that Mr. Obama has kept from them.

“This is the ‘hope campaign,’ this is the ‘change campaign,’ ” said Mr. Ellison, Democrat of Minnesota. Muslims are frustrated, he added, that “they have not been fully engaged in it.”

Aides to Mr. Obama denied that he had kept his Muslim supporters at arm’s length. They cited statements in which he had spoken inclusively about American Islam and a radio advertisement he recorded for the recent campaign of Representative Andre Carson, Democrat of Indiana, who this spring became the second Muslim elected to Congress.

In May, Mr. Obama also had a brief, private meeting with the leader of a mosque in Dearborn, Mich., home to the country’s largest concentration of Arab-Americans. And this month, a senior campaign aide met with Arab-American leaders in Dearborn, most of whom are Muslim. (Mr. Obama did not campaign in Michigan before the primary in January because of a party dispute over the calendar.)

“Our campaign has made every attempt to bring together Americans of all races, religions and backgrounds to take on our common challenges,” Ben LaBolt, a campaign spokesman, said in an e-mail message.

Mr. LaBolt added that with religious groups, the campaign had largely taken “an interfaith approach, one that may not have reached every group that wishes to participate but has reached many Muslim Americans.”

The strained relationship between Muslims and Mr. Obama reflects one of the central challenges facing the senator: how to maintain a broad electoral appeal without alienating any of the numerous constituencies he needs to win in November.

After the episode in Detroit last week, Mr. Obama telephoned the two Muslim women to apologize. “I take deepest offense to and will continue to fight against discrimination against people of any religious group or background,” he said in a statement.

Such gestures have fallen short in the eyes of many Muslim leaders, who say the Detroit incident and others illustrate a disconnect between Mr. Obama’s message of unity and his campaign strategy.

“The community feels betrayed,” said Safiya Ghori, the government relations director in the Washington office of the Muslim Public Affairs Council.

Even some of Mr. Obama’s strongest Muslim supporters say they are uncomfortable with the forceful denials he has made in response to rumors that he is secretly a Muslim. (Ten percent of registered voters believe the rumor, according to a poll by the Pew Research Center.)

In an interview with “60 Minutes,” Mr. Obama said the rumors were offensive to American Muslims because they played into “fearmongering.” But on a new section of his Web site, he classifies the claim that he is Muslim as a “smear.”

“A lot of us are waiting for him to say that there’s nothing wrong with being a Muslim, by the way,” Mr. Ellison said.

Mr. Ellison, a first-term congressman, remains arguably the senator’s most important Muslim supporter. He has attended Obama rallies in Minnesota and appears on the campaign’s Web site. But Mr. Ellison said he was also forced to cancel plans to campaign for Mr. Obama in North Carolina after an emissary for the senator told him the state was “too conservative.” Mr. Ellison said he blamed Mr. Obama’s aides — not the candidate himself — for his campaign’s standoffishness.

Despite the complications of wooing Muslim voters, Mr. Obama and his Republican rival, Senator John McCain, may find it risky to ignore this constituency. There are sizable Muslim populations in closely fought states like Florida, Michigan, Ohio and Virginia.

In those states and others, American Muslims have experienced a political awakening in the years since Sept. 11, 2001. Before the attacks, Muslim political leadership in the United States was dominated by well-heeled South Asian and Arab immigrants, whose communities account for a majority of the nation’s Muslims. (Another 20 percent are estimated to be African-American.) The number of American Muslims remains in dispute as the Census Bureau does not collect data on religious orientation; most estimates range from 2.35 million to 6 million.

A coalition of immigrant Muslim groups endorsed George W. Bush in his 2000 campaign, only to find themselves ignored by Bush administration officials as their communities were rocked by the carrying out of the USA Patriot Act, the detention and deportation of Muslim immigrants and other security measures after Sept. 11.

As a result, Muslim organizations began mobilizing supporters across the country to register to vote and run for local offices, and political action committees started tracking registered Muslim voters. The character of Muslim political organizations also began to change.

“We moved away from political leadership primarily by doctors, lawyers and elite professionals to real savvy grass-roots operatives,” said Mahdi Bray, executive director of the Muslim American Society Freedom Foundation, a political group in Washington. “We went back to the base.”

In 2006, the Virginia Muslim Political Action Committee arranged for 53 Muslim cabdrivers to skip their shifts at Dulles International Airport in Northern Virginia to transport voters to the polls for the midterm election. Of an estimated 60,000 registered Muslim voters in the state, 86 percent turned out and voted overwhelmingly for Jim Webb, a Democrat running for the Senate who subsequently won the election, according to data collected by the committee.

The committee’s president, Mukit Hossain, said Muslims in Virginia were drawn to Mr. Obama because of his support for civil liberties and his more diplomatic approach to the Middle East. Mr. Hossain and others said his multicultural image also appealed to immigrant voters.

“This is the son of an immigrant; this is someone with a funny name,” said James Zogby, president of the Arab American Institute, who is a Christian who has campaigned for Mr. Obama at mosques and Arab churches. “There is this excitement that if he can win, they can win, too.”

Yet some Muslim and Arab-American political organizers worry that the campaign’s reluctance to reach out to voters in those communities will eventually turn them off. “If they think that they are voting for a campaign that is trying to distance itself from them, my big fear is that Muslims will sit it out,” Mr. Hossain said.

Throughout the primaries, Muslim groups often failed to persuade Mr. Obama’s campaign to at least send a surrogate to speak to voters at their events, said Ms. Ghori, of the Muslim Public Affairs Council.

Before the Virginia primary in February, some of the nation’s leading Muslim organizations nearly canceled an event at a mosque in Sterling because they could not arrange for representatives from any of the major presidential campaigns to attend. At the last minute, they succeeded in wooing surrogates from the Clinton and Obama campaigns by telling each that the other was planning to attend, Mr. Bray said. (No one from the McCain campaign showed up.)

Frustrations with Mr. Obama deepened the day after he claimed the nomination when he told the American Israel Public Affairs Committee that Jerusalem should be the undivided capital of Israel. (Mr. Obama later clarified his statement, saying Jerusalem’s status would need to be negotiated between Israelis and Palestinians.)

Osama Siblani, the editor and publisher of the weekly Arab American News in Dearborn, said Mr. Obama had “pandered” to the Israeli lobby, while neglecting to meet formally with Arab-American and Muslim leaders. “They’re trying to take the votes without the liabilities,” said Mr. Siblani, who is also president of the Arab American Political Action Committee.

Some Muslim supporters of Mr. Obama seem to ricochet between dejection and optimism. Minha Husaini, a public health consultant in her 30s who is working for the Obama campaign in Philadelphia, lights up like a swooning teenager when she talks about his promise for change.

“He gives me hope,” Ms. Husaini said in an interview last month, shortly before she joined the campaign on a fellowship. But she sighed when the conversation turned to his denials of being Muslim, “as if it’s something bad,” she said.

For Ms. Ghori and other Muslims, Mr. Obama’s hands-off approach is not surprising in a political climate they feel is marred by frequent attacks on their faith.

Among the incidents they cite are a statement by Mr. McCain, in a 2007 interview with Beliefnet.com, that he would prefer a Christian president to a Muslim one; a comment by Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton that Mr. Obama was not Muslim “as far as I know”; and a remark by Representative Steve King, Republican of Iowa, to The Associated Press in March that an Obama victory would be celebrated by terrorists, who would see him as a “savior.”

“All you have to say is Barack Hussein Obama,” said Arsalan Iftikhar, a human rights lawyer and contributing editor at Islamica Magazine. “You don’t even have to say ‘Muslim.’ ”

As a consequence, many Muslims have kept their support for Mr. Obama quiet. Any visible show of allegiance could be used by his opponents to incite fear, further the false rumors about his faith and “bin-Laden him,” Mr. Bray said.

“The joke within the national Muslim organizations,” Ms. Ghori said, “is that we should endorse the person we don’t want to win.”
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Old 06-24-2008, 10:25 AM   #246
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Honestly, yes. I don't believe they will.

have you been totally blind to the fact that there's been a concerted effort to pain Barack and Michelle as left-wing black radicals? the "terrorist fist jab"?

but you might be right -- because of how Obama has now shaped the debate, anything they do is going to be understood as racism.

sucks to be politically outmaneuvered, i know.


Quote:
And when we talk about these 527 groups, let's get real. There are far, far more Democratic/liberal groups than there are Republican/conservative ones. In the 2004 election, the top ten 527 groups that spent the most money were all Democratic ones, as were 17 of the top 20.

In the 2006 elections, 18 of the top 20 fundraising/spending groups were liberal.

and John Kerry was still outspent. it's more than the 527s. who needs them when you have "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth"?

i'm still eagerly awaiting your angry denunciation of their tactics.
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Old 06-24-2008, 10:42 AM   #247
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Originally Posted by 2861U2 View Post
Sorry. Still Nothing. I'm just reading that radical Islam is the biggest threat this country faces. If people like you want to read more into that statement and pretend like McCain is trying to terrify people, then I can't help you.
You don't care at all that the man was asked about the economy and answered like he was Rudy Giuliani? We all know he knows nothing about the economy, but for heaven's sake, at least try and pretend.
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Old 06-24-2008, 10:45 AM   #248
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Originally Posted by 2861U2 View Post
Sorry. Still Nothing. I'm just reading that radical Islam is the biggest threat this country faces. If people like you want to read more into that statement and pretend like McCain is trying to terrify people, then I can't help you.
"People like me" want an a true economic answer when one is asked about the economy. Not a cop out answer that diverts the attention to this never ending war. If we weren't in Iraq right now McCain would never stand a chance, and he knows it, so he has to bring it up as much as he can. Of course bringing up another attack on US soil is a scare tactic
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Old 06-24-2008, 11:17 AM   #249
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COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo. (AP) - As Barack Obama broadens his outreach to evangelical voters, one of the movement's biggest names, James Dobson, accuses the likely Democratic presidential nominee of distorting the Bible and pushing a "fruitcake interpretation" of the Constitution.

The criticism, to be aired Tuesday on Dobson's Focus on the Family radio program, comes shortly after an Obama aide suggested a meeting at the organization's headquarters here, said Tom Minnery, senior vice president for government and public policy at Focus on the Family.

The conservative Christian group provided The Associated Press with an advance copy of the pre-taped radio segment, which runs 18 minutes and highlights excerpts of a speech Obama gave in June 2006 to the liberal Christian group Call to Renewal. Obama mentions Dobson in the speech.

"Even if we did have only Christians in our midst, if we expelled every non-Christian from the United States of America, whose Christianity would we teach in the schools?" Obama said. "Would we go with James Dobson's or Al Sharpton's?" referring to the civil rights leader.

Dobson took aim at examples Obama cited in asking which Biblical passages should guide public policy - chapters like Leviticus, which Obama said suggests slavery is OK and eating shellfish is an abomination, or Jesus' Sermon on the Mount, "a passage that is so radical that it's doubtful that our own Defense Department would survive its application."

"Folks haven't been reading their Bibles," Obama said.

Dobson and Minnery accused Obama of wrongly equating Old Testament texts and dietary codes that no longer apply to Jesus' teachings in the New Testament.

"I think he's deliberately distorting the traditional understanding of the Bible to fit his own worldview, his own confused theology," Dobson said.

"... He is dragging biblical understanding through the gutter."

Joshua DuBois, director of religious affairs for Obama's campaign, said in a statement that a full reading of Obama's speech shows he is committed to reaching out to people of faith and standing up for families. "Obama is proud to have the support of millions of Americans of faith and looks forward to working across religious lines to bring our country together," DuBois said.

Dobson reserved some of his harshest criticism for Obama's argument that the religiously motivated must frame debates over issues like abortion not just in their own religion's terms but in arguments accessible to all people.

He said Obama, who supports abortion rights, is trying to govern by the "lowest common denominator of morality," labeling it "a fruitcake interpretation of the Constitution."

"Am I required in a democracy to conform my efforts in the political arena to his bloody notion of what is right with regard to the lives of tiny babies?" Dobson said. "What he's trying to say here is unless everybody agrees, we have no right to fight for what we believe."

The program was paid for by a Focus on the Family affiliate whose donations are taxed, Dobson said, so it's legal for that group to get more involved in politics.

Last week, DuBois, a former Assemblies of God associate minister, called Minnery for what Minnery described as a cordial discussion. He would not go into detail, but said Dubois offered to visit the ministry in August when the Democratic National Convention is in Denver.

A possible Obama visit was not discussed, but Focus is open to one, Minnery said.

McCain also has not met with Dobson. A McCain campaign staffer offered Dobson a meeting with McCain recently in Denver, Minnery said. Dobson declined because he prefers that candidates visit the Focus on the Family campus to learn more about the organization, Minnery said
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Old 06-24-2008, 11:56 AM   #250
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Old 06-24-2008, 12:14 PM   #251
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It was just a few months ago that Dr. D was pulling his moral hair out over McCain getting the nomination. Maybe he'll do everyone a favor and stay home this year.
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Old 06-24-2008, 12:24 PM   #252
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more great news for Obama! Dobson wants to fight over scripture with Obama?

bring. it. on.

here's why: Obama is right and Dobson is wrong. that's incontestable. all Obama is doing is underscoring how a secular Democracy works, and what he's doing is arguing for a world where Dobson can spout off whatever nonsense he wants, even if what Dobson spouts off would, down the logical line, eradicate his own existence. what Obama has just done is validate the inclusion of people of faith -- all faiths as well as non-faiths -- in the public square while kicking the stuffing out of those who'd claim to have exclusive monopoly of the dialog in said public square.

it will take a Christian to kill off the Christianists, and BHO is just the man to do it.
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Old 06-24-2008, 12:25 PM   #253
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i'm still eagerly awaiting your angry denunciation of their tactics.
Fine. And I do. I don't remember those ads, but if they were false, then they were false, and shame on them.


And with all this talk about McCain supposedly scaring people, the Democrats do quite a bit of falsely scaring voters themselves. I sure hope you all can concede this.
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Old 06-24-2008, 12:26 PM   #254
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[q]"I think he's deliberately distorting the traditional understanding of the Bible to fit his own worldview, his own confused theology," Dobson said. "... He is dragging biblical understanding through the gutter."[/q]






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Old 06-24-2008, 12:29 PM   #255
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Fine. And I do. I don't remember those ads, but if they were false, then they were false, and shame on them.


And with all this talk about McCain supposedly scaring people, the Democrats do quite a bit of falsely scaring voters themselves. I sure hope you all can concede this.


i think all politicians use scare tactics to some extent.

the difference is that Democrats scare old people about their social security benefits, whereas Republicans tell you that you'll be killed by terrorists if you vote for the Democrats.

[q]Dick Cheney: We're now at that point where we're making that kind of decision for the next 30 or 40 years, and it's absolutely essential that eight weeks from today, on November 2nd, we make the right choice. Because if we make the wrong choice, then the danger is that we'll get hit again, that we'll be hit in a way that will be devastating from the standpoint of the United States.

Vice President and Mrs. Cheney's Remarks and Q&A at a Town Hall Meeting

[/q]
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