US 08 Presidential Campaign General Discussion Thread #8

[anitram]

** First 25 posts carried over from Thread #7. --y. **




There was also a focus group in Michigan last night, run by the Detroit Free Press, and she pretty much totally tanked with the independents.

“I was completely underwhelmed. She was a Republican novelty act with a sophomoric script. It was not even a speech I would expect for a someone running for the local PTA, much less for vice president.”

-- George Lentz, 66, Southfield independent

“Who is Sarah Palin? I'm sorry but I still don't know anymore about this young lady tonight than I did last night ... The way it looks to me, she's the Republican vice presidential nominee for one reason: because Hillary wasn't selected.”

-- Mike Kosh, 38, West Bloomfield independent

"Sarah Palin is a self-described ‘pitbull with lipstick.’ She spent little time helping Americans learn who she is. She is a cool, poised speaker, but her speech contained few statements about policy or the party platform. … I am not convinced that Palin's experience as a mayor or governor in Alaska meet the qualifications to be vice president much less one stroke or heart attack away from being commander in chief.”

-- Ilene Beninson, 52, Berkley independent

“Nothing worked for me. I found her barrage of snide remarksand distortions to be a major turn off. She is not a class act. The most important point she made is that she will be an effective attack dog.”

-- Jan Wheelock, 58, Royal Oak independent

“Sarah got as much applause as Hillary did, and had a friendly, appealing appearance.
Her delivery style reminded me of a high school valedictorian who also might have been a cheerleader. I thought she would appear more professional, more stateswomanly. She's no match for Joe Biden.”

-- Joellen Gilchrist, 64, Beverly Hills independent

The Dems/Republicans had comments that are to be expected, but the independents are the ones that really matter at this point.

Free Press voter panel reacts to Palin's speech | Freep.com | Detroit Free Press

 

[U2isthebest]

^I'm not surprised at all the Michigan independents reaction. I have seen very little support or talk of John McCain here, except for those who are Republicans, of course. Although, I have found it interesting that my aunt and uncle along with my mom's best friend and her husband who have always been staunch Republicans are considering voting for Obama this year. I certainly never expected that. It may be somewhat close here, but I highly doubt this will be the year a Republican gets Michigan. Our economy is in far too bad of a shape, and we're still a solid blue-collar state.

 

[BVS]

She was a Republican novelty act

Couldn't have said it better

 

[Diemen]

seems the middle thought Palin was mean.

That was my hunch.

 

[U2isthebest]

Yes, we do have a Beverly Hills and Berkley in Michigan. See, we're more liberal than you think.

 

[BVS]

This is revealing, too. Further confirmation of McCain's temperament problems from a fellow POW:

YouTube - Former POW says McCain is "not cut out to be President"

I'm glad this guy mentioned it, because I was going to say something earlier but didn't want my head chewed off for being an unpatriotic bastard.

But as I listened to Fred Thompson's speech, for I had never heard the guesome detail before, one thing kept entering my head. All that physical and psychological damage has lifelong effects, BIG lifelong effects. I don't care who you are it's going to effect you, take a look at the facts. I kept thinking all this detail is probably working on the heartstrings of most that are listening, but if it was a room of doctors they would all walk out and never even consider voting for him.

 

[Irvine511]

But as I listened to Fred Thompson's speech, for I had never heard the guesome detail before, one thing kept entering my head. All that physical and psychological damage has lifelong effects, BIG lifelong effects. I don't care who you are it's going to effect you, take a look at the facts. I kept thinking all this detail is probably working on the heartstrings of most that are listening, but if it was a room of doctors they would all walk out and never even consider voting for him.

i deeply respect McCain and i deeply appreciate his service and i cannot fathom what he went through.

if it were me, i think i'd be insane. i truly mean that. perhaps he's made of stronger stuff than i am, but i don't know how one goes through 2 years of solitary confinement and not come out unscarred.

that said, the Bushies in 2000 raised doubts about how his POW experience affected his sanity.

good for the Obama campaign for not going there.

say what you will about Obama, he is a class act in a dirty world.

 

[ImOuttaControl]

That's because no one knows her, everyone tuned in to find out who she is... If she had been known, or had already been on the trail for awhile these numbers wouldn't have even been close.

Either you must have some stats on that or you must have read the minds of 37,000,000 people.

 

[Diemen]

Either you must have some stats on that or you must have read the minds of 37,000,000 people.

Oh come on. Do you honestly think 37 million people would be tuning in for a speech from a potential VP if that person was a known entity?

Don't be naive.

 

[namkcuR]

Oh come on. Do you honestly think 37 million people would be tuning in for a speech from a potential VP if that person was a known entity?

Don't be naive.

Sometimes it seems as if 'Independent' is code for 'biased against both parties instead of just one'.

 

[BVS]

Either you must have some stats on that or you must have read the minds of 37,000,000 people.

Or maybe I just have common sense. It's a pretty easy educated guess to make. I was surrounded last night by people that could care less about politics most of the time, they just vote their party and stay out it but wanted to watch her. I know even more left leaning folks that aren't even paying attention to the RNC but wanted to watch her because they know nothing about her...

It's not like all these people tuned because they know she's a great speaker, or full of good ideas, etc...

 

[U2isthebest]

^I think that's pretty much right on. My grandparents, my parents, my friends and I are all voting for Obama, but we all tuned in just to see what she'd say and how she'd do. None of us were impressed. My grandma thinks she has cute kids and a good-looking husband, though, so yay!.

 

[namkcuR]

I watched all of Tuesday night and all of last night and I intend to watch all of tonight. You can't win if you don't know who the enemy is and what they're about.

 

[VintagePunk]

I'm glad this guy mentioned it, because I was going to say something earlier but didn't want my head chewed off for being an unpatriotic bastard.

But as I listened to Fred Thompson's speech, for I had never heard the guesome detail before, one thing kept entering my head. All that physical and psychological damage has lifelong effects, BIG lifelong effects. I don't care who you are it's going to effect you, take a look at the facts. I kept thinking all this detail is probably working on the heartstrings of most that are listening, but if it was a room of doctors they would all walk out and never even consider voting for him.

It's really sad the way the "unpatriotic" label is tossed around whenever people might bring up unpleasant but valid issues. A large part of patriotism, the way I understand it, is to question and learn. It pissed me off after 9/11 too, but I digress.

Yes, people should have serious concerns as to the way his experiences affected him mentally and physically. I found it very interesting that this man's thoughts are very consistent with what we already know about his temper. Is this former POW (gasp) unpatriotic for saying it?

 

[U2isthebest]

Am I the only one who finds myself drawn to listen to Springsteen's "Magic" album even more during this convention week? His frustration with the failures of the past 8 years and the direction our country has gone in are even more poignant, when you see all the people who still want to continue them.

 

[ImOuttaControl]

Just a perspective I saw at work today...

I'm a high school teacher in northern Minnesota, an area that is VERY blue due to the labor unions. Most people around here and the other teachers are self described conservative liberals and vote democrat. In fact, I know of only 1 teacher that said he's a Republican, and even he said he's a "New England Republican."

Anyway, today reactions to Palin's speech were mixed, but were generally positive. Of course our union president, who made her decision before there were even candidates, felt that Palin was mean and rude...etc. A few other die hard democrats felt the same.

However, quite a few teachers felt the opposite. They were impressed that, in their words, she was "so strong and forceful." In fact 2 paraprofessionals that work with me, both of whom told me last spring that they were for Obama, felt that Palin did an excellent job. My jaw nearly hit the floor when one para said he's become more and more unsure about a vote for Obama because he was the most avid supporter last spring.

Anyway, it made for an interesting day at work...the one thing the speech did was to really get people talking...even my students were talking about it all day.

 

[deep]

Just a perspective I saw at work today...

I'm a high school teacher in northern Minnesota, an area that is VERY blue due to the labor unions. Most people around here and the other teachers are self described conservative liberals and vote democrat. In fact, I know of only 1 teacher that said he's a Republican, and even he said he's a "New England Republican."

Anyway, today reactions to Palin's speech were mixed, but were generally positive. Of course our union president, who made her decision before there were even candidates, felt that Palin was mean and rude...etc. A few other die hard democrats felt the same.

However, quite a few teachers felt the opposite. They were impressed that, in their words, she was "so strong and forceful." In fact 2 paraprofessionals that work with me, both of whom told me last spring that they were for Obama, felt that Palin did an excellent job. My jaw nearly hit the floor when one para said he's become more and more unsure about a vote for Obama because he was the most avid supporter last spring.

Anyway, it made for an interesting day at work...the one thing the speech did was to really get people talking...even my students were talking about it all day.

this seems credible to me

and again the polls in a week to 10 days

will tell what real value Palin brings to this contest

 

[deep]

^I think that's pretty much right on. My grandparents, my parents, my friends and I are all voting for Obama, but we all tuned in just to see what she'd say and how she'd do. None of us were impressed. My grandma thinks she has cute kids and a good-looking husband, though, so yay!.

the fact that all of these people were wanting her to bomb (like Romney did) and she certainly did not

is an indication that she had a very good night

 

[namkcuR]

It's really sad the way the "unpatriotic" label is tossed around whenever people might bring up unpleasant but valid issues. A large part of patriotism, the way I understand it, is to question and learn. It pissed me off after 9/11 too, but I digress.

Yes, people should have serious concerns as to the way his experiences affected him mentally and physically. I found it very interesting that this man's thoughts are very consistent with what we already know about his temper. Is this former POW (gasp) unpatriotic for saying it?

What do you think this whole "country first" bullshit at this convention is about? The first night was like a military veterans convention. The clear implication is that Democrats/Liberals/Progressives don't care about their country. It's awful.

This reminds me...at my high school, as with most others, we had 'spirit' weeks. Each day there was a different dress-up theme: pajamas day, cowboy day, school colors day, etc. In the latter half of my junior year of high school, which would have been the first half of 2002, for one of the first spirit weeks the school was having after 9/11, they changed one of the days to be 'patriotism day', where you were supposed to wear red, white, and blue. I was in a vocational three-period a day computer science block at the time, and one of my classmates there, didn't wear red, white, and blue(a lot didn't). What he did do, is take a piece of ducktape, write on the non-sticky side with a marker, "The Bandwagon Patriots Club, Loving America Since 9/11/01", and stuck it to his ass and wore it there for the remainder of the school day. He was only 17 at the time, but he got the propaganda of it all.

Unlike all of the ADULTS at this convention who have a lot of actual LIFE EXPERIENCE who are still applauding this "country first" crap every time it's brought up.

 

[2861U2]

and again the polls in a week to 10 days

will tell what real value Palin brings to this contest

Good news so far. CBS poll has them tied 42-42, where it was 48-40 a week ago. The polls next week will be very interesting.

 

[ImOuttaControl]

Or maybe I just have common sense. It's a pretty easy educated guess to make. I was surrounded last night by people that could care less about politics most of the time, they just vote their party and stay out it but wanted to watch her. I know even more left leaning folks that aren't even paying attention to the RNC but wanted to watch her because they know nothing about her...

It's not like all these people tuned because they know she's a great speaker, or full of good ideas, etc...

Common sense?? Or it's that you, and the majority of this forum are extremely biased? A forum that is comprised of, what, 80% of people who would be left on the political spectrum? A group that is in no way representative of the country as a whole. When I usually lurk in this forum, I laugh to myself how the "wingnuts" on both sides (though the lefties here are FAR more numerous) are like a pack of wild hyenas that feed off of each other and stay from the rational middle ground. To me, making a seemingly certain statement like "they only watched because they didn't know her" as if there is no other reason is just plain ignorant. How can you possibly know? Maybe some people, like myself, are curious because she's the first female VP GOP candidate... In any case, I do really appreciate this forum because it does help me incorporate all arguements into my class discussions.

Also, I'm not naive(to whoever said it). I'm about as cynical as they come...it comes in handy though as I spend all day playing devil's advocate with my 11th/12th grade government students.

 

[namkcuR]

Good news so far. CBS poll has them tied 42-42, where it was 48-40 a week ago. The polls next week will be very interesting.

These national polls don't matter.

What matters is that Obama/Biden is ahead in New Mexico, 47.3 to 43.

What matters is that Obama/Biden is ahead in Pennsylvania, 47.4 to 42.4.

What matters is that Obama/Biden is ahead in Michigan, 46.0 to 41.7.

What matters is that Obama/Biden is ahead in Colorado, albeit by the slimmest of margins.

If all of this holds true, they win the election, even without Ohio, Virginia, or Florida. And the McCain/Palin lead in Ohio is less than one point right now, and it's a deadlock in Virginia.

McCain/Palin have a steeper hill to climb in terms of the electoral college.

 

[deep]

These national polls don't matter.

What matters is that Obama/Biden is ahead in New Mexico, 47.3 to 43.

What matters is that Obama/Biden is ahead in Pennsylvania, 47.4 to 42.4.

What matters is that Obama/Biden is ahead in Michigan, 46.0 to 41.7.

What matters is that Obama/Biden is ahead in Colorado, albeit by the slimmest of margins.

If all of this holds true, they win the election, even without Ohio, Virginia, or Florida. And the McCain/Palin lead in Ohio is less than one point right now, and it's a deadlock in Virginia.

McCain/Palin have a steeper hill to climb in terms of the electoral college.

especially with 8 years of Bush/ Cheney

with an approval rating around 28 %

 

[Diemen]

Common sense?? Or it's that you, and the majority of this forum are extremely biased? A forum that is comprised of, what, 80% of people who would be left on the political spectrum? A group that is in no way representative of the country as a whole. When I usually lurk in this forum, I laugh to myself how the "wingnuts" on both sides (though the lefties here are FAR more numerous) are like a pack of wild hyenas that feed off of each other and stay from the rational middle ground. To me, making a seemingly certain statement like "they only watched because they didn't know her" as if there is no other reason is just plain ignorant. How can you possibly know? Maybe some people, like myself, are curious because she's the first female VP GOP candidate... In any case, I do really appreciate this forum because it does help me incorporate all arguements into my class discussions.

Also, I'm not naive(to whoever said it). I'm about as cynical as they come...it comes in handy though as I spend all day playing devil's advocate with my 11th/12th grade government students.

This has nothing to do with bias. She's an unknown. Her positions are not clear. It was unclear what kind of speech she'd give or what kind of speaker she is. Would she try and appeal to the middle, independent women? Would she rally the base instead? All these were complete unknowns prior to her speech. People were interested in seeing what she had to offer. If this were Joe Liebermann, Mitt Romney or any other person who has been in the public eye for quite sometime giving the VP speech, I can guarantee you the numbers would not be as high because their reputation and style have already been well established in the party and in the wider political arena. Add on top of that the controversy of the pick and the various rumors swirling around in the days since the announcement, and the huge viewer turn out is pretty easily explained.

 

[2861U2]

These national polls don't matter.

What matters is that Obama/Biden is ahead in New Mexico, 47.3 to 43.

What matters is that Obama/Biden is ahead in Pennsylvania, 47.4 to 42.4.

What matters is that Obama/Biden is ahead in Michigan, 46.0 to 41.7.

What matters is that Obama/Biden is ahead in Colorado, albeit by the slimmest of margins.

If all of this holds true, they win the election, even without Ohio, Virginia, or Florida. And the McCain/Palin lead in Ohio is less than one point right now, and it's a deadlock in Virginia.

McCain/Palin have a steeper hill to climb in terms of the electoral college.

Would you be tossing aside national polls if Obama was up 50-40? Of course the EC is what counts, but I think national polls count for something, and I think they start meaning something right about now.

I could argue that state polls are basically meaningless right now, too, since most of them don't include the pick of Palin or the convention. I think she'll play well in Colorado, Michigan, and maybe Pennsylvania, so a lot could change in the coming weeks. We'll see.

The McCain campaign does have the task of taking 270 away from Obama, but it's certainly possibly. If the polls hold (and you give Virginia to McCain, which is likely) all he has to do is flip Michigan or Colorado.

 

[phillyfan26]

My father, who absolutely despises Joe Biden, was not at all impressed with Palin.

 

[phillyfan26]

Obama/Biden will definitively win PA, I guarantee that.

 

[BVS]

Common sense?? Or it's that you, and the majority of this forum are extremely biased? A forum that is comprised of, what, 80% of people who would be left on the political spectrum? A group that is in no way representative of the country as a whole. When I usually lurk in this forum, I laugh to myself how the "wingnuts" on both sides (though the lefties here are FAR more numerous) are like a pack of wild hyenas that feed off of each other and stay from the rational middle ground. To me, making a seemingly certain statement like "they only watched because they didn't know her" as if there is no other reason is just plain ignorant. How can you possibly know? Maybe some people, like myself, are curious because she's the first female VP GOP candidate... In any case, I do really appreciate this forum because it does help me incorporate all arguements into my class discussions.

You are missing my point by miles!!! There is no bias in my statement, my statement made no judgement about her whatsoever, I'm not sure what you are reading. You even said it yourself, "Maybe some people, like myself, are curious because she's the first female VP GOP candidate", it's curiosity. Now if she had been on the campaign trail now for several months would the curiosity factor still be there? Not nearly as much.

Honestly, I'm baffled by what you thought I was trying to say...

 

[Harry Vest]

My father, who absolutely despises Joe Biden, was not at all impressed with Palin.

How could he NOT be impressed? She's hot, sexy and spoke extremely well....

Oh, maybe it's the issues?

 

[Irvine511]

Would you be tossing aside national polls if Obama was up 50-40?

in the Gallup Poll, which we've been told repeatedly is the only poll that matters, Obama remains in the lead, 49-43%. this includes polling taken since yesterday, so it includes half the convention.