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Old 09-09-2008, 12:28 AM   #316
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Originally Posted by Strongbow View Post
Well, how would you describe Tim Kaine? Its simply to far of a stretch to suggest that Kaine is qualified and Palin is not.
You continue to bring up Kaine to the detriment of your argument. Obama did not pick Kaine. I take that to mean that Obama did not consider Kaine to be the right person for the job. And besides, no one in here is claiming that Kaine is qualified and Palin isn't (constructing your own opposition argument once again...). So go ahead and harp away at Kaine, but the fact of the matter is he's not in the picture. Sarah Palin is.
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Old 09-09-2008, 12:34 AM   #317
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Which national political organizations has Palin held leadership positions in? What did she do prior to being nominated to demonstrate an ambition to influence Republican domestic and foreign policy at the national level? And in the absence of either of those things, what does her record of public statements on federal matters show about her domestic and foreign policy acumen?
I noticed you skipped over this part, Sting. Perhaps because the answers are: none, nothing and very little?
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Old 09-09-2008, 01:46 AM   #318
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Even if you could find something, this is a razor thin arguement at best for suggesting that Bill Clinton was prepared to be President, but Sarah Palin is not.
Surprise surprise, you're twisting my argument. I did not say that serving as chair of the DLC and the NGA shows preparedness for being President; I said it demonstrates ambition on the part of a state-level executive to move onto the national stage and develop connections and name recognition within their party nationally. Clinton was a governor for 10 years as opposed to Palin's year-and-a-half, and he spent 10 months on the presidential campaign trail laying out his domestic and foreign policy stances as opposed to being plucked from national obscurity 2 months before the general election. As of September 1992, he didn't have anywhere near as much to prove in terms of either experience in office or knowledgeability on domestic and foreign policy issues as Gov. Palin does in September 2008. But IF Palin had made a point of seeking leadership positions with comparable national-level organizations, it would at least be something to point to as evidence that she's not a blank slate on national issues; that OK, so she may have only a year-and-a-half as governor under her belt, but she obviously has big ambitions for and "expressed interest" (as you put it) in national-level politics, as evinced by having taken on leadership positions in ________ while serving as governor.

Again--which national political organizations has Palin held leadership positions in? What did she do prior to being nominated to demonstrate an ambition to influence Republican domestic and foreign policy at the national level? And in the absence of either of those things, what does her record of public statements on federal matters show about her domestic and foreign policy acumen? Obama, McCain and Biden have all proven their knowledgeability of and involvement with shaping domestic and foreign policy--what are her credentials there?
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But hey, if the Democrats think thats their best shot of winning now, to go after Palin and her qualifications to be on the ticket, I say go for it.
It's not about her, it's about the man who just selected her as his nominee for the second-highest political office in the country; without him she wouldn't be there. What does that say about who he's beholden to and what he's willing to sacrifice to please them? Do you really think John McCain considers her the best-prepared, or even the second or third or fourth best-prepared, person for that office from his original list of potential picks?


Anyway, no one here has any influence over how the Democratic Party 'goes after' Palin (I presume they'll continue to focus on McCain), nor how she's ultimately perceived by independents. I'm not in charge of Obama's campaign strategy and make no pretense at offering any other perceptions than my own.
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I just noticed you mentioned Republicans and not Republicans AND Democrats.
Because it's the Republican VP candidate we're discussing.
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Not sure what function these are supposed to serve; the sentences they're bookending were obviously not intended either affectionately nor humorously.
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Old 09-09-2008, 09:57 AM   #319
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he spent 10 months on the presidential campaign trail laying out his domestic and foreign policy stances as opposed to being plucked from national obscurity 2 months before the general election. As of September 1992, he didn't have anywhere near as much to prove in terms of either experience in office or knowledgeability on domestic and foreign policy issues as Gov. Palin does in September 2008.
I think I have consistently stated I was talking about Governor Clinton prior to him running for the White House.


Quote:
Again--which national political organizations has Palin held leadership positions in? What did she do prior to being nominated to demonstrate an ambition to influence Republican domestic and foreign policy at the national level? And in the absence of either of those things, what does her record of public statements on federal matters show about her domestic and foreign policy acumen? Obama, McCain and Biden have all proven their knowledgeability of and involvement with shaping domestic and foreign policy--what are her credentials there?
Well, you really can't answer those questions about Clinton aside from listing the fact that he was the Chair of a couple of organizations that really have questionable impact on him being prepared to be President or Vice President. Do you think Clinton was qualified to be VP on the Democratic ticket in 1984? 1988? What about Tim Kaine?

Its just inconsistent to be implying that Tim Kaine and Clinton were ready to be Vice President or President prior to the election campaigns they were involved in or considered for and Palin is not. Sure, you can list a couple of clubs Clinton was briefly in, but to use that as an arguement against Palin is a bit extreme.

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It's not about her, it's about the man who just selected her as his nominee for the second-highest political office in the country; without him she wouldn't be there. What does that say about who he's beholden to and what he's willing to sacrifice to please them?
I don't think the fact that he went with Palin rather than Lieberman or Ridge shows that he his beholden to the party base anymore than any prior Republican candidate for President. Its simply not politically possible to put a pro-choice candidate on the ticket and win do to the size of the base that would leave. Would the Democrats ever put a pro-life candidate on the ticket? What does that say about who Democrats are beholden to and what they would be willing to sacrifice to please them?


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Do you really think John McCain considers her the best-prepared, or even the second or third or fourth best-prepared, person for that office from his original list of potential picks?
No, but thats not the only factor one considers in choosing among people who are qualified to be Vice President, as the Obama campaigns strong consideration of Tim Kaine shows. Is Tim Kaine really one of the top 3 best prepared people in the Democratic party for the office of Vice President?
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Old 09-09-2008, 10:10 AM   #320
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You continue to bring up Kaine to the detriment of your argument. Obama did not pick Kaine. I take that to mean that Obama did not consider Kaine to be the right person for the job. And besides, no one in here is claiming that Kaine is qualified and Palin isn't (constructing your own opposition argument once again...). So go ahead and harp away at Kaine, but the fact of the matter is he's not in the picture. Sarah Palin is.

The fact that Obama did not pick Kaine is irrelevant. We have already had multiple people on here saying that Palin is not qualified. Well, if Palin is not qualified how can one argue that Kaine is qualified, which the Obama compaign seriously believed that he was, which is why he was one of the top 3 VP picks for team Obama.

Just because Kaine was not picked is not arguement for saying that team Obama thought he was unqualified or not the right man for the job. Otherwise you could say that about everyone that Team Obama did not pick, concluding that Biden was the only man for the job.

Team Obama caculated from a political stand point that Biden was the VP candidate among the ones they considered, that would maximize Obama's chances of winning in November.
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Old 09-09-2008, 10:11 AM   #321
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I noticed you skipped over this part, Sting. Perhaps because the answers are: none, nothing and very little?
Not really any different for Tim Kaine or Governor Clinton prior to him running for President.
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Old 09-09-2008, 10:26 AM   #322
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The fact that Obama did not pick Kaine is irrelevant.


except that it is.
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Old 09-09-2008, 11:25 AM   #323
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Don't look now Boo boo but McCain has opened up a 15 point lead among Independents:

McCain Now Winning Majority of Independents

<>
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Old 09-09-2008, 11:37 AM   #324
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Don't look now Boo boo but McCain has opened up a 15 point lead among Independents:

McCain Now Winning Majority of Independents

<>


i still want you.
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Old 09-09-2008, 11:47 AM   #325
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How about, given that:

1.Sting feels that the fact that Obama didn't pick Kaine is irrelevant and that just the consideration of Kaine merits discussion.

2.Everyone else feels that the fact that Obama DID NOT pick Kaine illustrates that Obama judged Kaine to not be the best pick for VP and therefore any other discussion of Kaine's qualifications or preparedness to be VP are irrelevant.

we all just agree that no common ground is going to be found on this topic.

Because we're just going in circles right now.

"Obama didn't pick Kaine, so it doesn't matter!"

"But Kaine was a finalist, so it does matter!"

"But Obama didn't pick Kaine, so it doesn't matter!"

"But Kaine was a finalist, so it does matter!"

That's basically what's being said here.

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Old 09-09-2008, 11:53 AM   #326
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How about, given that:

1.Sting feels that the fact that Obama didn't pick Kaine is irrelevant and that just the consideration of Kaine merits discussion.

2.Everyone else feels that the fact that Obama DID NOT pick Kaine illustrates that Obama judged Kaine to not be the best pick for VP and therefore any other discussion of Kaine's qualifications or preparedness to be VP are irrelevant.

we all just agree that no common ground is going to be found on this topic.

Because we're just going in circles right now.

"Obama didn't pick Kaine, so it doesn't matter!"

"But Kaine was a finalist, so it does matter!"

"But Obama didn't pick Kaine, so it doesn't matter!"

"But Kaine was a finalist, so it does matter!"

That's basically what's being said here.



what's interesting is that the structure of this "discussion" as you've outlined above continues to repeat itself on other topics.
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Old 09-09-2008, 11:56 AM   #327
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It's all irrelevant. The VP picks are Palin and Biden. Any discussion of anyone other than these 2 is a waste of time. Any speculation about the ones who were not chose is just that...speculation. That type of analysis can be saved for after the election when we are discussing why Obama lost by not picking Clinton...

just kidding. I could resist.

Kaine is not the choice so any discussion about him and his experience does not matter. Its Biden's strengths and weaknesses that are effecting the Obama ticket.
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Old 09-09-2008, 12:03 PM   #328
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It's all irrelevant. The VP picks are Palin and Biden. Any discussion of anyone other than these 2 is a waste of time. Any speculation about the ones who were not chose is just that...speculation. That type of analysis can be saved for after the election when we are discussing why Obama lost by not picking Clinton...

just kidding. I could resist.

Kaine is not the choice so any discussion about him and his experience does not matter. Its Biden's strengths and weaknesses that are effecting the Obama ticket.
Glad you see it that way.

And Biden's strengths are effecting the Obama ticket in a very positive way.

Understand this: The ONLY thing that might stop Biden from absolutely eviscerating Palin in the VP debate is the fear of right-wing media saying that Biden was too rough with her, bullied her, whatever. He won't bully her at all, he's much to classy a man for that - but the media will report it that way anyway if he so much as raises his voice to make a point.

Imo, the Democratic ticket has two people with whom I would feel 100% comfortable being president, while the Republican ticket is struggling to have one.

I realize your opinion is and will be 100% the opposite.
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Old 09-09-2008, 12:27 PM   #329
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Glad you see it that way.

And Biden's strengths are effecting the Obama ticket in a very positive way.

Understand this: The ONLY thing that might stop Biden from absolutely eviscerating Palin in the VP debate is the fear of right-wing media saying that Biden was too rough with her, bullied her, whatever. He won't bully her at all, he's much to classy a man for that - but the media will report it that way anyway if he so much as raises his voice to make a point.

Imo, the Democratic ticket has two people with whom I would feel 100% comfortable being president, while the Republican ticket is struggling to have one.

I realize your opinion is and will be 100% the opposite.

Not 100% opposite, but maybe a bit more open minded


I think you are giving a lot of credit to Biden who was not very strong in the debates for the Democratic nomination. To say "ONLY thing" is having a pretty narrow view. She many not have a background in the Washington political machine but she's not a complete idiot. They both have challenges in how they will come across to Americans regardless of WHAT they say. What they say is most important but if either comes across as an a-hole or mean or ???, what they say might not get heard.

It will be a fun debate to watch.
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Old 09-09-2008, 12:37 PM   #330
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It will be a fun debate to watch.


my guess is that it's going to be really, really painful. he'll come off stilted and awkward, and she'll just repeat her lines.
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