US 08 Presidential Campaign General Discussion Thread #7

[Irvine511]

Oh, so you were not looking to have a serious discussion about her qualifications or potentially her foreign policy thoughts....

It was a potshot...

i'll say it again.

there is no discussion to have about Palin's foreign policy thoughts because she hasn't expressed any. there's nothing on record.

what i am talking about is what the McCain campaign has demonstrated with this pick.

Palin was chosen because she was a female pro-life evangelical who had a personal story that would greatly appeal to the base of the Republican party.

this says to me that the McCain campaign has made a decision that's deeply unserious about the security of the country. and given the surprise that it took many people by, the choice was rash, a gamble. which speaks volumes about McCain's decision making.

it's difficult to discuss Palin because there's not much to discuss.

this has told us mountains about McCain.

 

[Dreadsox]

it should be very, very easy to prove that Palin is the mother, not the grandmother.

the fact that she had a baby at 44 who was born with DS was trotted out by the McCain campaign the day she was announced.

that is why this story begs any sort of verification.

this isn't swift boating. there are NO political ads on TV about this. there is no organization behind this. yet.

this is the internet, bloggers and the like, exercising their right to ask questions.

She should not have to prove shit. And it seriously disturbs me that anyone who is serious about this election would be bringing this up as a talking point.

What is much more pertinent to me would be Obama and what could potentially be viewed as his radical associates.....

from the church he has attended to his associations with the former weatherman....

A serious lack of judgement in my mind spanning a rather very long period of time.

That lack of judgement, makes me question, does his lack of inexperience, and open mind to extremist views, make him dangerous due to the fact that he may concede to much to people who threaten this country.

 

[anitram]

My goodness, I hear John McCain is actually Trig's father. I mean if this pans out to be true, because it is out there on the web with so many viable sources...

How did you miss the obvious John Edwards joke?

 

[A_Wanderer]

it should be very, very easy to prove that Palin is the mother, not the grandmother.

the fact that she had a baby at 44 who was born with DS was trotted out by the McCain campaign the day she was announced.

that is why this story begs any sort of verification.

this isn't swift boating. there are NO political ads on TV about this. there is no organization behind this. yet.

this is the internet, bloggers and the like, exercising their right to ask questions.

Could you repost the story, because it makes more sense for a woman at that age to have a child with a chromosomal disorder than the daughter.

 

[Irvine511]

She should not have to prove shit. And it seriously disturbs me that anyone who is serious about this election would be bringing this up as a talking point.

What is much more pertinent to me would be Obama and what could potentially be viewed as his radical associates.....

from the church he has attended to his associations with the former weatherman....

A serious lack of judgement in my mind spanning a rather very long period of time.

That lack of judgement, makes me question, does his lack of inexperience, and open mind to extremist views, make him dangerous due to the fact that he may concede to much to people who threaten this country.

see, i think that the McCain campaign trotting out a candidate who's central narrative was the main reason for her pick and now that central narrative is false is a way, way bigger issue then whether or not Obama might have been in the same room with someone who blew up a building when he was 8 years old.

but, again, it's what the Palin pick says about McCain is what is so worrisome to me.

 

[Dreadsox]

i'll say it again.

there is no discussion to have about Palin's foreign policy thoughts because she hasn't expressed any. there's nothing on record.

what i am talking about is what the McCain campaign has demonstrated with this pick.

Palin was chosen because she was a female pro-life evangelical who had a personal story that would greatly appeal to the base of the Republican party.

this says to me that the McCain campaign has made a decision that's deeply unserious about the security of the country. and given the surprise that it took many people by, the choice was rash, a gamble. which speaks volumes about McCain's decision making.

it's difficult to discuss Palin because there's not much to discuss.

this has told us mountains about McCain.

But one can construe that she is more ready than Obama to be Commander in Chief. She most certainly has demonstrated through a trip over seas to visit with troops that she has an interest in them and their needs. And she did this before she was a twinkle in the eye of McCain.

But, maybe that does not count as foreign policy experience...

When did Obama go? Just curious?

 

[Irvine511]

Could you repost the story, because it makes more sense for a woman at that age to have a child with a chromosomal disorder than the daughter.

Daily Kos: Sarah Palin Is NOT The Mother [Photos+Video]

again, as i've stated, these are internet blogger buzzings. there is no "story" as of yet.

 

[Dreadsox]

i'll say it again.

there is no discussion to have about Palin's foreign policy thoughts because she hasn't expressed any. there's nothing on record.

what i am talking about is what the McCain campaign has demonstrated with this pick.

Palin was chosen because she was a female pro-life evangelical who had a personal story that would greatly appeal to the base of the Republican party.

this says to me that the McCain campaign has made a decision that's deeply unserious about the security of the country. and given the surprise that it took many people by, the choice was rash, a gamble. which speaks volumes about McCain's decision making.

it's difficult to discuss Palin because there's not much to discuss.

this has told us mountains about McCain.

Say it again and again...why is it an issue...Biden was chosen for a reason. A+ for you to recognize it.

I guess my question is, should I as a voter vote for Obama, potentially a candidate as inexperienced as you are saying? Wouldn't that make me like McCain and make me guilty of:

a decision that's deeply unserious about the security of the country. and given the surprise that it took many people by, the choice was rash, a gamble. which speaks volumes about my decision making.

 

[Dreadsox]

How did you miss the obvious John Edwards joke?

Thank you for making me laugh...

Nando wants to dance with you.

 

[Irvine511]

But one can construe that she is more ready than Obama to be Commander in Chief. She most certainly has demonstrated through a trip over seas to visit with troops that she has an interest in them and their needs. And she did this before she was a twinkle in the eye of McCain.

But, maybe that does not count as foreign policy experience...

When did Obama go? Just curious?

Obama first visited in January of 2006.

as i posted earlier, these trips or "fact-finding missions" are really just PR sessions. the real learning is done through research.

what did Palin tell us about her trip to Kuwait? what is her opinion on the withdrawal?

 

[Dreadsox]

Wouldn't that make his visit after he announced? So really he does not give a rats ass about the troops because he was running for President by then. Or do I have my dates off....

He waited two years to visit? Wow...what was he doing all those months.

I mean she was just elected Governor and cared enough to visit the troops for no reason?

 

[Irvine511]

Say it again and again...why is it an issue...Biden was chosen for a reason. A+ for you to recognize it.

and if it turned out that the central reason for Biden turned out to be false?

and is it not true that the "central reason" for the Biden pick was to add foreign policy cred to Obama? and is it also not true that the "central reason" for the Palin pick was to pander to the Christianist base?

who would you rather have as your president making decisions?

I guess my question is, should I as a voter vote for Obama, potentially a candidate as inexperienced as you are saying? Wouldn't that make me like McCain and make me guilty of:

a decision that's deeply unserious about the security of the country. and given the surprise that it took many people by, the choice was rash, a gamble. which speaks volumes about my decision making.

is there a difference between preparedness and experience?

also, we know what Obama thinks. we know what he believes. we know what he says he will do.

we know none of these things about Palin.

i think to equivocate between Palin and Obama is poor thinking.

 

[financeguy]

i'll say it again.

there is no discussion to have about Palin's foreign policy thoughts because she hasn't expressed any. there's nothing on record.

what i am talking about is what the McCain campaign has demonstrated with this pick.

Palin was chosen because she was a female pro-life evangelical who had a personal story that would greatly appeal to the base of the Republican party.

this says to me that the McCain campaign has made a decision that's deeply unserious about the security of the country. and given the surprise that it took many people by, the choice was rash, a gamble. which speaks volumes about McCain's decision making.

it's difficult to discuss Palin because there's not much to discuss.

this has told us mountains about McCain.

If you seriously think that this was a spur of the moment decision by McCain, rather than a decision made after all kinds of discussions involving probably hundreds of Republican strategists, policy wonks and PR experts, then you are kidding yourself.

Frankly, it's much more likely that McCain didn't even want someone like Palin on his ticket, but was convinced by his advisors.

 

[Dreadsox]

So should I take my chance on a Woman VP getting EXPERIENCE as a VP over Obama who is at the top of the ticket?

Seems like you have helped me change my mind. I may be safer with the inexperience on the VP end of things.

 

[Irvine511]

Wouldn't that make his visit after he announced? So really he does not give a rats ass about the troops because he was running for President by then. Or do I have my dates off....

your dates are off. he announced in 2007.

he also is on record opposing the war, in a richly detailed speech that outlines a genuine foreign policy philosophy, in 2002.

He waited two years to visit? Wow...what was he doing all those months.

being a Senator?

I mean she was just elected Governor and cared enough to visit the troops for no reason?

then, please, show me where she's talked seriously about Iraq and about foreign policy in general.

as governor of Alaska, i wouldn't think it would be terribly relevant to her job. i don't blame her.

again, i am not digging on Palin.

i am digging on McCain.

 

[deep]

we know Obama's positions

do we

they are not locked in



against gas tax holiday
now in favor

against FISA amnesty
voted for it

no off shore drilling
now some off shore drilling

no full seating of Florida or Michigan, rules must be enforced
full seating of Florida and Michigan, rules not enforced


I can show you where Palin has been more consistent in 2 years
than Obama has been in 6 months

 

[Irvine511]

If you seriously think that this was a spur of the moment decision by McCain, rather than a decision made after all kinds of discussions involving probably hundreds of Republican strategists, policy wonks and PR experts, then you are kidding yourself.

Frankly, it's much more likely that McCain didn't even want someone like Palin on his ticket, but was convinced by his advisors.

she wasn't extensively vetted. it was startling to most Republicans. it has caught everyone by surprise.

i am not kidding myself. not at all.

i will say it again -- i think it was a media stunt.

 

[Utoo]

She should not have to prove shit. And it seriously disturbs me that anyone who is serious about this election would be bringing this up as a talking point.

I think the idea is that it's less of a talking point against her as a person. Rather, it's more of a laugh that a party that prides itself on "family values" and chides others for their lack of them, would be shown so strikingly that it is in reality no better than anyone else. I hope that, true or false, it is not used against her in a personal way, though I'm sure it would be. If the story is true, I find what she allegedly did to be both somewhat honorable and sad in a poignant way. But for the party--one that preaches abstinence, "values," and a whole list of other lofty issues--I think a good chuckle would be deserved.

Could you repost the story, because it makes more sense for a woman at that age to have a child with a chromosomal disorder than the daughter.

Actually, even though women over 35yrs have a higher risk of having a baby born with DS, more children with DS are born to women under 35--simply because they have more children.

 

[anitram]

Frankly, it's much more likely that McCain didn't even want someone like Palin on his ticket, but was convinced by his advisors.

Wasn't all the media reporting that Rove was strongly pushing for Romney?

I think that McCain can't stand him and that's why Romney wasn't picked. The feeling is likely mutual.

 

[Irvine511]

So should I take my chance on a Woman VP getting EXPERIENCE as a VP over Obama who is at the top of the ticket?

Seems like you have helped me change my mind. I may be safer with the inexperience on the VP end of things.

so you'd vote for McCain who obviously doesn't have these issues?

you'd vote for a man who's putting someone even more inexperienced than the (in your judgment) inexperienced Obama just a heartbeat away from the presidency?

the fact is, Obama is a known quantity who has thought deeply and seriously about issues, has said what he will do, and has managed a multimillion dollar organization that defeated the Clintons.

Palin has no such paper trail, there is no evidence that she's given any serious thought at all to foreign policy.

though it sounds like what i originally thought about the pick -- that McCain is engaging in some weird sort of judo -- is working on you.

 

[financeguy]

she wasn't extensively vetted. it was startling to most Republicans. it has caught everyone by surprise.

i am not kidding myself. not at all.

i will say it again -- i think it was a media stunt.

I think he sounded out plenty of people, but I would grant you that he ultimately discarded most of their advice.

I disagree with your statement that it was a rash choice. It was a calculated gambler's choice, which is not the same thing, at all, as rash.

It was a risky choice, granted, but it could pay off big - or alternatively, lose him the election big.

 

[Irvine511]

It was a risky choice, granted, but it could pay off big - or alternatively, lose him the election big.

sounds like the invasion of Iraq.

is this who we want making these decisions?

 

[Irvine511]

I can show you where Palin has been more consistent in 2 years
than Obama has been in 6 months

you've convinced me

that Obama has a record

and Palin does not.

 

[financeguy]

sounds like the invasion of Iraq.

is this who we want making these decisions?

My point of view has always been that I am sceptical of interventionist foreign policy.

So, no, I don't want McCain making these decisions - but I wouldn't want, say, Hillary Clinton making them either. Obama may or may not be better, but he's completely untested, thus far, every bit as untested as Palin.

One thing Obama DOES have going for him, from the point of view of anti-war conservatives, is that he voted against the Iraq invasion.

 

[deep]

I think he sounded out plenty of people, but I would grant you that he ultimately discarded most of their advice.

I disagree with your statement that it was a rash choice. It was a calculated gambler's choice, which is not the same thing, at all, as rash.

It was a risky choice, granted, but it could pay off big - or alternatively, lose him the election big.

I agree

I saw something where she had mentioned it back in April.


Just because McCain knows how to keep things on the down low
does not mean it did not happen.

I prefer this style
over ginning it all up like the Obama people did with all the hype and text crap.

 

[Dreadsox]

so you'd vote for McCain who obviously doesn't have these issues?

you'd vote for a man who's putting someone even more inexperienced than the (in your judgment) inexperienced Obama just a heartbeat away from the presidency?

the fact is, Obama is a known quantity who has thought deeply and seriously about issues, has said what he will do, and has managed a multimillion dollar organization that defeated the Clintons.

Palin has no such paper trail, there is no evidence that she's given any serious thought at all to foreign policy.

though it sounds like what i originally thought about the pick -- that McCain is engaging in some weird sort of judo -- is working on you.

Obama's known quantities...his propensity to surround himself with what I considener "extremist" views...concerns me.

That propensity concerns me more than her inexperience.

McCain has thought deeply about issues as well. That and 10 cents will get me...well...nothing in this country...hehe Damn economy.

 

[Irvine511]

Obama may or may not be better, but he's completely untested, thus far, every bit as untested as Palin.

but we have ample evidence that he takes these decisions very, very seriously, and we have ample evidence that he makes informed, thought out, cautious decisions.

 

[Diemen]

Wouldn't that make his visit after he announced? So really he does not give a rats ass about the troops because he was running for President by then.

Compelling argument you're making here. Searching Obama's senate records shows that he was talking about shortages in veteran's affairs budgets in 2005, and then went on to cosponsor a bill that led to a $1.5 billion increase in veteran's medical care. Also authored a Sheltering All Veterans Everywhere Act in '05, and a Homes for Heroes Act in '06.

Clearly doesn't give a shit about the troops.

 

[deep]

you've convinced me

that Obama has a record

and Palin does not.

yes
a record of saying one thing and then doing something else.

 

[Irvine511]

I prefer this style
over ginning it all up like the Obama people did with all the hype and text crap.

in my opinion,

McCain's unveiling was a much, much bigger and more successful stunt.