US 08 Presidential Campaign General Discussion Thread #7

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And while I agree with you completely, I know you have enough intelligence to say that the left and right both distort the truth to get elected.

To claim or insuate that McCain is more dishonest than Obama is just plain - dishonest.

Yes both distort. But please show me one Obama ad that distorted as bad as the "tiny" ad. The "hundred years" argument was a distortion of context, but this ad was distortion to the point that the original comment wasn't recognizable, they don't compare.
 
Yes both distort. But please show me one Obama ad that distorted as bad as the "tiny" ad. The "hundred years" argument was a distortion of context, but this ad was distortion to the point that the original comment wasn't recognizable, they don't compare.

Dishonesty is dishonesty - and it is sad when it boils down to a group of people saying, his dishonesty is worse than my guys.
 
They can serve for 50 years for all I care, withstand capture and torment all they want, and it won't make any difference to me.

Its statements like this that bring legitimacy to the left...:applaud:
 
Liberal interventionism revival
Madeleine Albright has been everywhere in her adopted home town of Denver this week. The former Secretary of State and U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, the hard-core Wilsonian who was central in transforming Bill Clinton's second-term foreign policy from cautiously scattershot to Munich-invoking liberal-interventionist, is playing a weird role in Barack Obama's Democratic Party.

This is a time when left-of-center anti-war sentiment is high enough that a relatively unknown Chicago pol croaked the Hillary Clinton machine largely because he was the only major anti-Iraq War candidate in the race. It's a time when Democrats are falling all over themselves criticizing George W. Bush's Russia-provoking recognition of Kosovo as an independent state. And yet the main architect of the Kosovo War—a sovereignty-busting conflict that, unlike Iraq, had no congressional support whatsoever, and much less support at the United Nations—is at the center of rebuilding the Democratic foreign-policy messaging and approach.

You'd think that such a disconnect between anti-war base and pro-interventionist leadership would cause a few brains to explode, but the only people who seem to be hearing the dissonance in Denver are journalists.

True, the foreign policy discussion here is exponentially more robust and well-intended than at the last two Democratic conventions. At each event, no matter who the speaker—Albright, Bill Clinton, Richard Danzig, Richard Holbrooke, William Perry—you will almost definitely hear the same areas of agreement. These are:

1) The U.S. needs to restore its shattered moral authority in the world, and rebuild alliances based on a more collaborative approach.

2) We need to take the war on Al Qaeda more robustly in Pakistan and Afghanistan.

3) Climate change (for the better) and "energy independence" are central to foreign policy.

4) So is "global inequality," "income disparity," and "the growing gap between rich and poor." Oddly, this particular line is never followed up with, "And that's why we need to reduce domestic farm subsidies and take down global trade barriers.

5) Nuclear proliferation is a big problem, and we need to cooperate on it with Russia.

6) The military needs to be rebuilt, expanded, and re-tooled to handle more nation-buildy, soft-power type of chores.

7) More money for diplomacy and translators!

Some of these things are indeed important, and might well make this world a better place, ip doo tan.

But they sidestep the fundamental questions that, you'd think, Democrats (and the rest of us!) want answered. Such as: When do you go to war, and why? Are we still to be the "indispensable nation," with all the responsibility and presumption that comes with it, such as preventing mini-Munichs all over the globe, including such non-Munichs as dictators slaughtering their own people? What happens when all this groovy "collaboration" stuff doesn't produce desired results?

The answers to such questions over the past couple of days have been all over the damned map, even as the facade of unity has continued to obtain. For instance, on the question of America's unipolar role, today Albright gave a luncheon speech that:

A) fretted that the "economic center of gravity" continues to move away from the U.S.;

B) stressed that we need to "enhance America's ability to lead," because even though "the world may not be clamoring for American leadership" right now, "there is no doubt that a guiding hand is needed," in part to provide "a more effective response" to "violent extremism" in Afghanistan, Pakistan, the Caucasus, the Middle East, Sudan and Congo; and

C) pointed out that it will "take time" to convince people that "we're not imperialists."

This is not necessarily change that war-weary Obama supporters can believe in, and in fact it's much less change than a restoration of the liberal interventionism of Bill Clinton's second term.

On the other end of the Democratic spectrum, former Defense Secretary William Perry was acting like all Vladimir Putin's resurgent Russia needs is a big hug. "Russia really wants respect," he said at a panel Tuesday. "We start off by treating Russia with respect." Sorry, but wasn't Bush's whole man-love for Putin at the Crawford ranch more respect than the ex-KGB hack deserves?

Then there is Obama's foreign policy man Richard Danzig, who's a pretty funny and persuasive speaker, until you try to figure out whatever the hell he's talking about. At about minute 70 of his talk with Perry, Danzig unveiled the slogan and mindset that will lead Democrats to a glorious future of global leadership: "Sustainable security."

This is policy by empty politico sloganeering, not unlike having the still-alive Melissa Etheridge performing "Give Peace a Chance" to a crowd of ecstatic delegates who are about to vote for a party that has few intentions of doing anything of the sort.
All We Are Saying Is, Make Smarter War: Will Democratic foreign policy be built by the hawkish Madeleine Albright? - Reason Magazine
 
For someone else to mockingly incorporate McCain's POW experiences into a joke is quite different than for he himself to overuse and even exploit them to deflect criticism.

Well he's the one who went on the Tonight Show and brought it up. Personally I find him answering the number of houses question, and other questions, by bringing up being a POW far more offensive than diemen's post or by anyone "celebrating" his post.

FOR THE RECORD I have the utmost admiration for his service and his time as a POW, always have. What I have no admiration for is his randomly bizarre injection of it, seemingly to deflect every criticism. Now because he was a POW he can't be criticized for doing that? Come on.

I personally know people who have been to hell and back because of war (some still stuck in that hell and will never get out), and yet they never once use it to respond to criticism of other aspects of their lives, or exploited it to deflect from other issues. I think to do so in the way that John McCain is degrades the experience far more than any post on a message board ever could.
 
he's making a mockery of his actual experience by using it as a trump card on *every* issue, from Iraq to the number of homes he owns.

and let's not forget for a single moment how the Republicans mocked John Kerry's service in Vietnam.

again: THERE IS NO COMPARISON. the depths to which the Republicans routinely sink has no democratic comparison.

Agreed. Purple BandAid anyone? Oops I forgot, John McCain was the RIGHT kind of soldier (TM courtesy of Rush Limbaugh). Pardon me while I vomit. Now THAT is offensive.
 
Dishonesty is dishonesty - and it is sad when it boils down to a group of people saying, his dishonesty is worse than my guys.



i totally disagree.

we have phrases like "white lies." there are degrees of dishonesty.

in this campaign -- if Obama is a 4, McCain is about a 9.
 
Its statements like this that bring legitimacy to the left...:applaud:

Dude, if you seriously think that military service makes one competent to lead a country, you're an idiot. I know more douchebags who've been in the military than I care to know. Not that I'm saying that military service makes you stupid or that idiots go into the military---my grandfather was a WWII vet and an amazing person. However, you can be a hero in war when your life is on the line and still be an ignorant asshole.
 
I personally know people who have been to hell and back because of war (some still stuck in that hell and will never get out), and yet they never once use it to respond to criticism of other aspects of their lives, or exploited it to deflect from other issues.
So do I, but that doesn't mean I'd resort to making light of their experiences to make my point if I felt they were exploiting them. No one suggested that McCain's way of using them was somehow beyond criticism. Pointing out that he risks cheapening his own experiences and those of others by using them in that way is fine; pointing out the sadness of someone with his background having waffled on the Bush Administration's attempts to redefine acceptable 'interrogation techniques' is fine. But there are some kinds of personal experiences it's not for you (I mean 'you' generically) to mockingly make light of, unless they're your experiences as well.
Dude, if you seriously think that military service makes one competent to lead a country, you're an idiot.
Not only do you completely misrepresent his point, but you toss in a personal attack as well.
 
Good people of America without health insurance, fear not. John McCain's platform doesn't believe you're really uninsured.

But the numbers are misleading, said John Goodman, president of the National Center for Policy Analysis, a right-leaning Dallas-based think tank. Mr. Goodman, who helped craft Sen. John McCain's health care policy, said anyone with access to an emergency room effectively has insurance, albeit the government acts as the payer of last resort. (Hospital emergency rooms by law cannot turn away a patient in need of immediate care.)

"So I have a solution. And it will cost not one thin dime," Mr. Goodman said. "The next president of the United States should sign an executive order requiring the Census Bureau to cease and desist from describing any American – even illegal aliens – as uninsured. Instead, the bureau should categorize people according to the likely source of payment should they need care.

Not sure how many people in here have a medical background, but anyone who does and anyone else with one shred of common sense and two brain cells to rub together will tell you that the emergency room is NOT where you should be receiving ongoing primary care! The entire notion is too absurd for words.

Article here.
 
I know a few emergency med docs, and they're always shaking their heads over the number of people who attempt to (well, have to) rely on emergency room visits for any and all "health care" because they don't have insurance.
 
Dear, dear Senator McCain, this is not what people mean when they say "universal health care plan". I've never even heard of the government picking up someone's ER bills. When I had to go to the ER a couple years ago, we didn't have insurance because the school my dad taught at had just closed, and we didn't have insurance at that point. We just finished paying off that bill a couple months ago. It took over 2 years.
 
I know a few emergency med docs, and they're always shaking their heads over the number of people who attempt to (well, have to) rely on emergency room visits for any and all "health care" because they don't have insurance.

And that's what creates the long lines in the ER that everybody likes to complain about.

The comments in that article are really indicative of a head-in-the-sand mentality more than anything else.
 
so you're more qualified than i am to be president simply because you're a veteran?

Hey, according to this guy, yes.

According to Scott Southworth, co-chair of Veterans for John McCain,

"Its very important when you're fighting wars on different fronts, that the commander in chief understands what its like to be in the military and serve his country. Barack Obama chose not to serve his country. John McCain chose to serve his country."

Unless you're in fatigues, you are NOT SERVING YOUR COUNTRY.

Doctors, nurses, social workers, teachers, volunteers, community outreach organizers, please go piss off.
 
Hey, according to this guy, yes.



Unless you're in fatigues, you are NOT SERVING YOUR COUNTRY.

Doctors, nurses, social workers, teachers, volunteers, community outreach organizers, please go piss off.

Not long ago in this forum I was defending the Iraq War, and someone, maybe multiple people (I forget who, but maybe I'll search for it) said something to me along the lines of:

"Well if you support the war, why aren't you in Iraq? When are you enlisting?"

I pointed out that you can support the war and serve your country without necessarily joining the military. I hope you denounce those remarks made towards me, right? Just wondering. Because I didn't see too many people back me up then.
 
I can't speak for anybody who told you to enlist - you have a beef, take it up with them.

But I think there is a difference between this man saying that Obama CHOSE not to serve his country (in a time of peace, I might add) and somebody wondering why a person doesn't enlist at a time of war when they are pushing that particular war particularly strongly. Again though, I can't guarantee this was whoever's thinking, but it's my first assumption.
 
Yeah, for about 3 days. He barely finished his training. Let's be real here. There have so been discrepancies in his records that it's not even funny. There's evidence to prove this. Try researching it.

Yeah, there are all kinds of conspiracies and unproven allegations. You can ask Dan Rather about it. But fact remains, you are 100% incorrect when you state that Bush did not serve in the military.
 
I don't consider going through some flight training "serving" in the military. I don't care if it's technically considered that He did the bare minimum and got out. He shouldn't be considered a hero by anyone who's truly served their country as soldiers. such as John McCain and John Kerry did.
 
I can't speak for anybody who told you to enlist - you have a beef, take it up with them.

But I think there is a difference between this man saying that Obama CHOSE not to serve his country (in a time of peace, I might add) and somebody wondering why a person doesn't enlist at a time of war when they are pushing that particular war particularly strongly. Again though, I can't guarantee this was whoever's thinking, but it's my first assumption.

Well, the United States was involved multiple wars in the 1990s, so you really can't state that it was a time of peace. In addition, the year after 9/11 and prior to the Iraq war was indeed a time of war as well.
 
I don't consider going through some flight training "serving" in the military. I don't care if it's technically considered that He did the bare minimum and got out. He shouldn't be considered a hero by anyone who's truly served their country as soldiers. such as John McCain and John Kerry did.

Its rather simple, Bush served in the military. You claimed he did not. Your factually incorrect. Just admit it and move on.
 
Well, the United States was involved multiple wars in the 1990s, so you really can't state that it was a time of peace.

If you polled 10 people and asked them if the US was at war post-Desert Storm, I guarantee you that 10 out of 10 would say no. You're just talking about semantics here.

But this is really completely irrelevant to the point at hand. Do you agree with Southworth's statement?
 
Its rather simple, Bush served in the military. You claimed he did not. Your factually incorrect. Just admit it and move on.

I knew that Bush was in the National Guard. I knew he completed his training. I know he technically served. He never fought in combat or spent years in the military as a career. That's what I was referring to. Don't tell me what I need to admit or not admit. If you misunderstood me or anyone else here, it's not our fault.
 
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