US 08 Presidential Campaign General Discussion Thread #7

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John McCain's POW experience is not something Democrats can just dismiss. In addition, remember that John McCain served as a Naval officer on active duty for a full 23 years of his life. Thats more active military service than any previous President in history except Ike and Zachery Taylor. Unfortunately, these facts get lost in the labling shuffle.

Do you just miss the point on purpose for fun? Nobody is speaking negatively of his POW experience or his military experience. It is the fact that he is using it as a response every time anybody calls him out for anything. Anything he ever does or says wrong, he responds with, 'oh, but I was a POW, for five years I didn't have a table, a chair, etc'. It's terrible that he had to go through that, but it is 1000000% IRRELEVANT TO MOST OF THESE THINGS, AND IT MOST CERTAINLY DOES NOT EXCUSE HIM FROM THEM.
 
Do you just miss the point on purpose for fun? Nobody is speaking negatively of his POW experience or his military experience. It is the fact that he is using it as a response every time anybody calls him out for anything. Anything he ever does or says wrong, he responds with, 'oh, but I was a POW, for five years I didn't have a table, a chair, etc'. It's terrible that he had to go through that, but it is 1000000% IRRELEVANT TO MOST OF THESE THINGS, AND IT MOST CERTAINLY DOES NOT EXCUSE HIM FROM THEM.

Did it ever occur to you that I was making my own point? In addition, given the type of attacks that have been made on him it is definitely appropriate for McCain to mention his experience. The idea that anyone would try to paint McCain as being out of touch is outrageous.
 
For someone else to mockingly incorporate McCain's POW experiences into a joke is quite different than for he himself to overuse and even exploit them to deflect criticism.
 
John McCain's POW experience is not something Democrats can just dismiss. In addition, remember that John McCain served as a Naval officer on active duty for a full 23 years of his life. Thats more active military service than any previous President in history except Ike and Zachery Taylor. Unfortunately, these facts get lost in the labling shuffle.

"I don't think riding in a fighter plane and getting shot down is a qualification to be president." -- General Wesley Clark



And as much as the McCain camp huffed and hawed over the tact of that statement, there is not one iota of falsehood in it.
 
No, what McCain is doing is way beyond anything Obama has done in the discussion of lying to and attempting to manipulate the people through deceit. Obama has never intentionally twisted someone else's words SO much in an attempt to pull one over on the people who are dumb enough to fall for it. Never. "


Well, I suggest you go to fact check - non partisan website - and take a look at how many each of them distorted.

It is complete and utter bull to say the Obama camp has not done it.
 
"I don't think riding in a fighter plane and getting shot down is a qualification to be president." -- General Wesley Clark



And as much as the McCain camp huffed and hawed over the tact of that statement, there is not one iota of falsehood in it.


Nor does hanging out with cop killers and calling them friends. There is not one iota of falsehood in that either...

But in many people's minds it may make him less qualified than McCain.
 
For someone else to mockingly incorporate McCain's POW experiences into a joke is quite different than for he himself to overuse and even exploit them to deflect criticism.

Please explain to me how it is different? I may come to inderstand what is humorous about it....

Maybe I can learn to laugh with the forum...
 
"I don't think riding in a fighter plane and getting shot down is a qualification to be president." -- General Wesley Clark



And as much as the McCain camp huffed and hawed over the tact of that statement, there is not one iota of falsehood in it.

not one iota of falsehood?

riding in a fighter plane and getting shot down

is not a true representation of

Piloting his 23rd bombing mission over North Vietnam, when his A-4E Skyhawk was shot down by a missile over Hanoi.



John McCain's capture and imprisonment began on October 26, 1967. He was flying his 23rd bombing mission over North Vietnam, when his A-4E Skyhawk was shot down by a missile over Hanoi. McCain fractured both arms and a leg, and then nearly drowned, when he parachuted into Truc Bach Lake in Hanoi. After he regained consciousness, a crowd attacked him, crushed his shoulder with a rifle butt, and bayoneted him.[30] Lieutenant Commander McCain was then transported to Hanoi's main Hoa Lo Prison, nicknamed the "Hanoi Hilton".

Although McCain was badly wounded, his captors refused to treat his injuries, instead beating and interrogating him to get information, and he was given medical care only when the North Vietnamese discovered that his father was a top admiral. His status as a prisoner of war (POW) made the front pages of major newspapers.

McCain spent six weeks in the hospital while receiving marginal care.[30] Now having lost 50 pounds (23 kg), in a chest cast, and with his hair turned white, McCain was sent to a different camp on the outskirts of Hanoi[36] in December 1967, into a cell with two other Americans who did not expect him to live a week. In March 1968, McCain was put into solitary confinement, where he would remain for two years.

In mid–1968, McCain's father was named commander of all U.S. forces in the Vietnam theater, and McCain was offered early release.[39] The North Vietnamese made that offer because they wanted to appear merciful for propaganda purposes, and also wanted to show other POWs that elites like McCain were willing to be treated preferentially. McCain turned down the offer of repatriation; he would only accept the offer if every man taken in before him was released as well.

In August 1968, a program of severe torture began on McCain. He was subjected to rope bindings and repeated beatings every two hours, at the same time as he was suffering from dysentery. Further injuries led to the beginning of a suicide attempt, which was stopped by guards. After four days, McCain made an anti-American propaganda "confession". He has always felt that his statement was dishonorable, but as he would later write, "I had learned what we all learned over there: Every man has his breaking point. I had reached mine."His injuries left him permanently incapable of raising his arms above his head. He subsequently received two to three beatings per week because of his continued refusal to sign additional statements. Other American POWs were similarly tortured and maltreated in order to extract "confessions" and propaganda statements.


McCain refused to meet with various anti-war groups seeking peace in Hanoi, wanting to give neither them nor the North Vietnamese a propaganda victory.[47] From late 1969 onward, treatment of McCain and many of the other POWs became more tolerable,[48] while McCain continued to be an active resister against the camp authorities.[49] McCain and other prisoners cheered the B-52 Stratofortress-led U.S. "Christmas Bombing" campaign of December 1972, which they viewed as a forceful measure to push North Vietnam to terms.

Altogether, McCain was held as a prisoner of war in North Vietnam for five and a half years. He was finally released from captivity on March 14, 1973.
 
Please explain to me how it is different? I may come to inderstand what is humorous about it....

Maybe I can learn to laugh with the forum...
No--I was agreeing with you. I wasn't laughing either.
 
"I don't think riding in a fighter plane and getting shot down is a qualification to be president." -- General Wesley Clark



And as much as the McCain camp huffed and hawed over the tact of that statement, there is not one iota of falsehood in it.

That was one thing that happened in McCain's 23 year active duty military career. The dismissal and reduction of McCain's 23 year military career into a sentence like that speaks to the point I was making above. Its simply pathetic and ignorant.

Millions of Americans and the majority of veterans do not agree with former General Wesley Clark and will be voting for McCain in November.
 
I don't care if McCain is the reincarnation of Gen. George S. Patton. It doesn't make him inherently more qualified to be president. Ulysses S. Grant was the leading U.S. general of the Civil War, and it still didn't prevent him from being one of the worst presidents in American history.

It seems like every presidential election is little more than a reenactment of the "Appeal to Authority" logical fallacy.
 
I don't care if McCain is the reincarnation of Gen. George S. Patton. It doesn't make him inherently more qualified to be president. Ulysses S. Grant was the leading U.S. general of the Civil War, and it still didn't prevent him from being one of the worst presidents in American history.

It is apart of McCain's life experience and must be something that every intelligent and serious voter should consider when deciding who to vote for in the fall. It is definitely not something that can be pushed to the side or dismissed, especially when the country is in the middle of two wars.
 
not one iota of falsehood?

riding in a fighter plane and getting shot down

is not a true representation of

Piloting his 23rd bombing mission over North Vietnam, when his A-4E Skyhawk was shot down by a missile over Hanoi.

Deep, come on now - there is humor in this somewhere.
 
I don't care if McCain is the reincarnation of Gen. George S. Patton. It doesn't make him inherently more qualified to be president. Ulysses S. Grant was the leading U.S. general of the Civil War, and it still didn't prevent him from being one of the worst presidents in American history.

It seems like every presidential election is little more than a reenactment of the "Appeal to Authority" logical fallacy.


I don't disagree

Bill Clinton had zero experience with military service and was a very good President.

GW Bush had some military experience in the Texas Air Reserve before he went AWOL and he has been a terrible President.

Wesley Clark's description of McCain's experience is crap.
 
Anyway, the Obama campaign is in trouble at this point.

They seemingly haven't seen much uplift in the polls from the combined VP announcement, Hilary's endorsement and the Democrats' conference.

Of course, there is still much to play for.
 
I don't care if McCain is the reincarnation of Gen. George S. Patton. It doesn't make him inherently more qualified to be president. Ulysses S. Grant was the leading U.S. general of the Civil War, and it still didn't prevent him from being one of the worst presidents in American history.

It seems like every presidential election is little more than a reenactment of the "Appeal to Authority" logical fallacy.

And while I agree with you completely, I know you have enough intelligence to say that the left and right both distort the truth to get elected.

To claim or insuate that McCain is more dishonest than Obama is just plain - dishonest.
 
I don't care if McCain is the reincarnation of Gen. George S. Patton. It doesn't make him inherently more qualified to be president. Ulysses S. Grant was the leading U.S. general of the Civil War, and it still didn't prevent him from being one of the worst presidents in American history.


Exactly. I have a friend from med school who is in the Navy. Stand-up guy. Virtuous, cares about mankind, loves his country, will always do what his heart tells him is right. Should he run for President thirty years from now, I've seen evidence that he's got the mettle.

I also have two friends from high school who've been in the Marines since graduating 10 years ago. They've fought in Iraq & Afghanistan. They have a ton of medals, another's been written up in Newsweek for a heroic act he performed in Iraq. But you know what? They're both assholes. Chumps. Dickheads. I don't give two shits that they've been in the military for the last ten years, especially as they've done it to "see the world" and because they didn't know what else to do after high school---not for some amazing "love of country." They can serve for 50 years for all I care, withstand capture and torment all they want, and it won't make any difference to me.

Think of me what you will, but serving in the military doesn't erase any dickhead character traits or ideological flaws for me.

not one iota of falsehood?

riding in a fighter plane and getting shot down

is not a true representation of

Piloting his 23rd bombing mission over North Vietnam, when his A-4E Skyhawk was shot down by a missile over Hanoi.

Somehow, I fail to see what falsehood you've pointed out.
 
And while I agree with you completely, I know you have enough intelligence to say that the left and right both distort the truth to get elected.

To claim or insuate that McCain is more dishonest than Obama is just plain - dishonest.

I have neither claimed nor insinuated anything about McCain's honesty. I'm pretty sure he thinks he's going to be a great president and his intentions are probably just as good as Bush's have been. That certainly does not mean that he will be great, just because he says he will be. At some point, we have to look beyond the flashy displays of patriotism and militaristic bravado and ask ourselves who we will be more comfortable with as president.

Frankly, McCain scares me just as much as Bush, and he has said or done nothing at all to prove otherwise. "Military experience" be damned.
 
I find the celebration of that post to be so disturbing, it is nauseating...

Seriously, you accuse the right of lying and distorting and celebrate this. I am leaning towards Obama. If you believe that the left does not play the same game...then step back, and take a look at it. It happens from both the left and the right.

McCain, is a flawed as Obama, a man who associated with an individual responsible for the cold blooded murder of a Boston Cop. A man he calls friend.

Aren't we all guilty of our own distortions and lies? Or is it just in here, where if the man does not match our belief systems, we get to say shite like this.

It may be time to retire....I am not sure I can last the election in here. Every time I come here I want to vote McCain because of these types of posts.

Would largely agree, and I also favour Obama.

The left seem to go for the cheap shot scattergun approach an awful lot in here recently.

It is not just one or two, there are three or four people doing it.
 
Anyway, the Obama campaign is in trouble at this point.

They seemingly haven't seen much uplift in the polls from the combined VP announcement, Hilary's endorsement and the Democrats' conference.

Of course, there is still much to play for.


It will take a few more days for the polls to really react to the Democratic convention. We probably won't know for sure what the effect has been until this weekend. But, Friday McCain comes out with his VP announcement, and then its the Republicans turn starting Monday.
 
It is complete and utter bull to say the Obama camp has not done it.



we are talking about a difference in degree.

show me a political ad done by Obama that is even in the same ballpark as the "tiny" political ad nonsense just run by McCain.

he's run the most nasty, petty, vile, small-minded campaign i've ever seen. all they do is mock Obama. that's it. that's the basis of their campaign. that, and that John McCain is a POW.
 
I also have two friends from high school who've been in the Marines since graduating 10 years ago. They've fought in Iraq & Afghanistan. They have a ton of medals, another's been written up in Newsweek for a heroic act he performed in Iraq. But you know what? They're both assholes. Chumps. Dickheads. I don't give two shits that they've been in the military for the last ten years, especially as they've done it to "see the world" and because they didn't know what else to do after high school---not for some amazing "love of country." They can serve for 50 years for all I care, withstand capture and torment all they want, and it won't make any difference to me.



:up:

to think that military experience somehow trumps any other sort of experience is crap thought.

i know lots of veterans. i see lots of people where i work walking around with missing limbs. unlike other posters, i actually SEE the effects of the Iraq debacle on the lives of those who've fought in this war. i admire their courage, i respect their sacrifice.

in no way, shape, or form do i think this makes them BETTER than anyone else, i do not think it makes them SMARTER than anyone else, i do not think it makes them MORE QUALIFIED than anyone else to understand complex issues.
 
It will take a few more days for the polls to really react to the Democratic convention. We probably won't know for sure what the effect has been until this weekend. But, Friday McCain comes out with his VP announcement, and then its the Republicans turn starting Monday.



gustav_20080827110100.jpg
 
I find the celebration of that post to be so disturbing, it is nauseating...

Seriously, you accuse the right of lying and distorting and celebrate this. I am leaning towards Obama. If you believe that the left does not play the same game...then step back, and take a look at it. It happens from both the left and the right.

McCain, is a flawed as Obama, a man who associated with an individual responsible for the cold blooded murder of a Boston Cop. A man he calls friend.

Aren't we all guilty of our own distortions and lies? Or is it just in here, where if the man does not match our belief systems, we get to say shite like this.

It may be time to retire....I am not sure I can last the election in here. Every time I come here I want to vote McCain because of these types of posts.

Dread, just so you know, my post, while certainly snarky, is extremely close to McCain's actual response (or dodge, rather) to questions about not knowing how many houses he owned. And he's used his POW status as a dodge on quite a few occasions, and should be rightly called out for it.
 
Dread, just so you know, my post, while certainly snarky, is extremely close to McCain's actual response (or dodge, rather) to questions about not knowing how many houses he owned. And he's used his POW status as a dodge on quite a few occasions, and should be rightly called out for it.



he's making a mockery of his actual experience by using it as a trump card on *every* issue, from Iraq to the number of homes he owns.

and let's not forget for a single moment how the Republicans mocked John Kerry's service in Vietnam.

again: THERE IS NO COMPARISON. the depths to which the Republicans routinely sink has no democratic comparison.

and they continue to do so because they keep getting elected.

only we can make them stop.
 
and let's not forget for a single moment how the Republicans mocked John Kerry's service in Vietnam.
.

since you are for not forgetting
for a single moment even

then I am sure you recall John McCain spoke out against the Swift Boat ads against John Kerry in 2004 and even asked Bush to stop them.
Bush and Cheney responded that they had no control over these 535? groups.

Also, during the 2004 election John McCain was asked on national t v (Larry King, I think) if John Kerry was qualified to be Commander In Chief?

He responded without hesitation, "Yes."

The Conservatives, A M talk hosts went bonkers.
 
since you are for not forgetting
for a single moment even

then I am sure you recall John McCain spoke out against the Swift Boat ads against John Kerry in 2004 and even asked Bush to stop them.
Bush and Cheney responded that they had no control over these 535? groups.

Also, during the 2004 election John McCain was asked on national t v (Larry King, I think) if John Kerry was qualified to be Commander In Chief?

He responded without hesitation, "Yes."

The Conservatives, A M talk hosts went bonkers.


and how sad that the John McCain of 2008 would be unrecognizable to the John McCain of 2000, or even 2004.

the John McCain who said that there was a special place in Hell for Karl Rove after what he did to McCain and his adopted daughter, Bridget, in the SC primaries of 2000.

Maverick? no. it's all an image. it was carefully constructed in the wake of the Keating 5 scandal. it's all smoke and mirrors. now, more than ever.
 
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