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Old 08-28-2008, 12:59 AM   #631
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Originally Posted by Dreadsox View Post
And while I agree with you completely, I know you have enough intelligence to say that the left and right both distort the truth to get elected.

To claim or insuate that McCain is more dishonest than Obama is just plain - dishonest.
Yes both distort. But please show me one Obama ad that distorted as bad as the "tiny" ad. The "hundred years" argument was a distortion of context, but this ad was distortion to the point that the original comment wasn't recognizable, they don't compare.
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Old 08-28-2008, 04:07 AM   #632
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Originally Posted by BonoVoxSupastar View Post
Yes both distort. But please show me one Obama ad that distorted as bad as the "tiny" ad. The "hundred years" argument was a distortion of context, but this ad was distortion to the point that the original comment wasn't recognizable, they don't compare.
Dishonesty is dishonesty - and it is sad when it boils down to a group of people saying, his dishonesty is worse than my guys.
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Old 08-28-2008, 04:18 AM   #633
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They can serve for 50 years for all I care, withstand capture and torment all they want, and it won't make any difference to me.
Its statements like this that bring legitimacy to the left...
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Old 08-28-2008, 06:56 AM   #634
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Liberal interventionism revival
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Madeleine Albright has been everywhere in her adopted home town of Denver this week. The former Secretary of State and U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, the hard-core Wilsonian who was central in transforming Bill Clinton's second-term foreign policy from cautiously scattershot to Munich-invoking liberal-interventionist, is playing a weird role in Barack Obama's Democratic Party.

This is a time when left-of-center anti-war sentiment is high enough that a relatively unknown Chicago pol croaked the Hillary Clinton machine largely because he was the only major anti-Iraq War candidate in the race. It's a time when Democrats are falling all over themselves criticizing George W. Bush's Russia-provoking recognition of Kosovo as an independent state. And yet the main architect of the Kosovo War—a sovereignty-busting conflict that, unlike Iraq, had no congressional support whatsoever, and much less support at the United Nations—is at the center of rebuilding the Democratic foreign-policy messaging and approach.

You'd think that such a disconnect between anti-war base and pro-interventionist leadership would cause a few brains to explode, but the only people who seem to be hearing the dissonance in Denver are journalists.

True, the foreign policy discussion here is exponentially more robust and well-intended than at the last two Democratic conventions. At each event, no matter who the speaker—Albright, Bill Clinton, Richard Danzig, Richard Holbrooke, William Perry—you will almost definitely hear the same areas of agreement. These are:

1) The U.S. needs to restore its shattered moral authority in the world, and rebuild alliances based on a more collaborative approach.

2) We need to take the war on Al Qaeda more robustly in Pakistan and Afghanistan.

3) Climate change (for the better) and "energy independence" are central to foreign policy.

4) So is "global inequality," "income disparity," and "the growing gap between rich and poor." Oddly, this particular line is never followed up with, "And that's why we need to reduce domestic farm subsidies and take down global trade barriers.

5) Nuclear proliferation is a big problem, and we need to cooperate on it with Russia.

6) The military needs to be rebuilt, expanded, and re-tooled to handle more nation-buildy, soft-power type of chores.

7) More money for diplomacy and translators!

Some of these things are indeed important, and might well make this world a better place, ip doo tan.

But they sidestep the fundamental questions that, you'd think, Democrats (and the rest of us!) want answered. Such as: When do you go to war, and why? Are we still to be the "indispensable nation," with all the responsibility and presumption that comes with it, such as preventing mini-Munichs all over the globe, including such non-Munichs as dictators slaughtering their own people? What happens when all this groovy "collaboration" stuff doesn't produce desired results?

The answers to such questions over the past couple of days have been all over the damned map, even as the facade of unity has continued to obtain. For instance, on the question of America's unipolar role, today Albright gave a luncheon speech that:

A) fretted that the "economic center of gravity" continues to move away from the U.S.;

B) stressed that we need to "enhance America's ability to lead," because even though "the world may not be clamoring for American leadership" right now, "there is no doubt that a guiding hand is needed," in part to provide "a more effective response" to "violent extremism" in Afghanistan, Pakistan, the Caucasus, the Middle East, Sudan and Congo; and

C) pointed out that it will "take time" to convince people that "we're not imperialists."

This is not necessarily change that war-weary Obama supporters can believe in, and in fact it's much less change than a restoration of the liberal interventionism of Bill Clinton's second term.

On the other end of the Democratic spectrum, former Defense Secretary William Perry was acting like all Vladimir Putin's resurgent Russia needs is a big hug. "Russia really wants respect," he said at a panel Tuesday. "We start off by treating Russia with respect." Sorry, but wasn't Bush's whole man-love for Putin at the Crawford ranch more respect than the ex-KGB hack deserves?

Then there is Obama's foreign policy man Richard Danzig, who's a pretty funny and persuasive speaker, until you try to figure out whatever the hell he's talking about. At about minute 70 of his talk with Perry, Danzig unveiled the slogan and mindset that will lead Democrats to a glorious future of global leadership: "Sustainable security."

This is policy by empty politico sloganeering, not unlike having the still-alive Melissa Etheridge performing "Give Peace a Chance" to a crowd of ecstatic delegates who are about to vote for a party that has few intentions of doing anything of the sort.
All We Are Saying Is, Make Smarter War: Will Democratic foreign policy be built by the hawkish Madeleine Albright? - Reason Magazine
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Old 08-28-2008, 07:46 AM   #635
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Originally Posted by Dreadsox View Post
Dishonesty is dishonesty - and it is sad when it boils down to a group of people saying, his dishonesty is worse than my guys.
Do these jeans make my ass look fat?
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Old 08-28-2008, 08:12 AM   #636
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For someone else to mockingly incorporate McCain's POW experiences into a joke is quite different than for he himself to overuse and even exploit them to deflect criticism.
Well he's the one who went on the Tonight Show and brought it up. Personally I find him answering the number of houses question, and other questions, by bringing up being a POW far more offensive than diemen's post or by anyone "celebrating" his post.

FOR THE RECORD I have the utmost admiration for his service and his time as a POW, always have. What I have no admiration for is his randomly bizarre injection of it, seemingly to deflect every criticism. Now because he was a POW he can't be criticized for doing that? Come on.

I personally know people who have been to hell and back because of war (some still stuck in that hell and will never get out), and yet they never once use it to respond to criticism of other aspects of their lives, or exploited it to deflect from other issues. I think to do so in the way that John McCain is degrades the experience far more than any post on a message board ever could.
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Old 08-28-2008, 08:19 AM   #637
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Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
he's making a mockery of his actual experience by using it as a trump card on *every* issue, from Iraq to the number of homes he owns.

and let's not forget for a single moment how the Republicans mocked John Kerry's service in Vietnam.

again: THERE IS NO COMPARISON. the depths to which the Republicans routinely sink has no democratic comparison.
Agreed. Purple BandAid anyone? Oops I forgot, John McCain was the RIGHT kind of soldier (TM courtesy of Rush Limbaugh). Pardon me while I vomit. Now THAT is offensive.
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Old 08-28-2008, 10:22 AM   #638
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Dishonesty is dishonesty - and it is sad when it boils down to a group of people saying, his dishonesty is worse than my guys.


i totally disagree.

we have phrases like "white lies." there are degrees of dishonesty.

in this campaign -- if Obama is a 4, McCain is about a 9.
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Old 08-28-2008, 10:23 AM   #639
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Originally Posted by Dreadsox View Post
Its statements like this that bring legitimacy to the left...


so you're more qualified than i am to be president simply because you're a veteran?
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Old 08-28-2008, 10:28 AM   #640
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Originally Posted by Dreadsox View Post
Its statements like this that bring legitimacy to the left...
Dude, if you seriously think that military service makes one competent to lead a country, you're an idiot. I know more douchebags who've been in the military than I care to know. Not that I'm saying that military service makes you stupid or that idiots go into the military---my grandfather was a WWII vet and an amazing person. However, you can be a hero in war when your life is on the line and still be an ignorant asshole.
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Old 08-28-2008, 10:33 AM   #641
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Whoa, calm down there Utoo...
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Old 08-28-2008, 11:21 AM   #642
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Originally Posted by MrsSpringsteen View Post
I personally know people who have been to hell and back because of war (some still stuck in that hell and will never get out), and yet they never once use it to respond to criticism of other aspects of their lives, or exploited it to deflect from other issues.
So do I, but that doesn't mean I'd resort to making light of their experiences to make my point if I felt they were exploiting them. No one suggested that McCain's way of using them was somehow beyond criticism. Pointing out that he risks cheapening his own experiences and those of others by using them in that way is fine; pointing out the sadness of someone with his background having waffled on the Bush Administration's attempts to redefine acceptable 'interrogation techniques' is fine. But there are some kinds of personal experiences it's not for you (I mean 'you' generically) to mockingly make light of, unless they're your experiences as well.
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Dude, if you seriously think that military service makes one competent to lead a country, you're an idiot.
Not only do you completely misrepresent his point, but you toss in a personal attack as well.
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Old 08-28-2008, 11:36 AM   #643
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Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
we have phrases like "white lies."
There you go, playing the race card.
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Old 08-28-2008, 11:40 AM   #644
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There you go, playing the race card.


touche. well played.
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Old 08-28-2008, 12:24 PM   #645
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Good people of America without health insurance, fear not. John McCain's platform doesn't believe you're really uninsured.

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But the numbers are misleading, said John Goodman, president of the National Center for Policy Analysis, a right-leaning Dallas-based think tank. Mr. Goodman, who helped craft Sen. John McCain's health care policy, said anyone with access to an emergency room effectively has insurance, albeit the government acts as the payer of last resort. (Hospital emergency rooms by law cannot turn away a patient in need of immediate care.)

"So I have a solution. And it will cost not one thin dime," Mr. Goodman said. "The next president of the United States should sign an executive order requiring the Census Bureau to cease and desist from describing any American – even illegal aliens – as uninsured. Instead, the bureau should categorize people according to the likely source of payment should they need care.
Not sure how many people in here have a medical background, but anyone who does and anyone else with one shred of common sense and two brain cells to rub together will tell you that the emergency room is NOT where you should be receiving ongoing primary care! The entire notion is too absurd for words.

Article here.
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