US 08 Presidential Campaign General Discussion Thread #7

[Diemen]

seriously, what the fuck?

this is so, so weak.

Agreed. Everyone is going to commit gaffes if they're up on stage day after day, night after night. It happens to everyone - McCain has certainly had his share. To claim he can't string 2 words together is just about the most pathetic claim I've ever heard in reference to Obama.

 

[Vincent Vega]

and MT into competitive races.

Yeah, election campaigning in my host state!

 

[deep]

Actually, I could easily see a McCain electoral victory with a magin of defeat greater than Kerry's defeat in the popular vote in 2004. The African American vote will be the highest its ever been in many southern States, but will not be enough to win any of them. Add that with some very close McCain victories in swing states, and McCain could be President despite Obama winning with as much as a 4 percent margin in the popular vote.

Then there is the 269 to 269 tie senerio which could happen for the first time this year, given certain swing states and who is likely to win in them.

A tie?

Really?

I guess we would have to go for a "jump ball" ?

Would that be fair?

 

[Vincent Vega]

What would the "procedure" be like if a tie happened?
I know how in socialist Germany that would be done, but in the US...?

 

[deep]

The Supreme Court that Bush appointed would select McCain.

just kidding​

 

[Vincent Vega]

Are you sure you are kidding? I sincerely hope so.

 

[Irvine511]

A tie?

Really?

I guess we would have to go for a "jump ball" ?

Would that be fair?

they should settle it like men.

with a game of H-O-R-S-E.

 

[Irvine511]

Agreed. Everyone is going to commit gaffes if they're up on stage day after day, night after night. It happens to everyone - McCain has certainly had his share. To claim he can't string 2 words together is just about the most pathetic claim I've ever heard in reference to Obama.

what we're getting in this thread is a parroting of one specific line of attack that's bouncing around the right wing blogosphere/echo chamber (from Rush to Michelle Malkin to Glen Beck) -- that Obama is prone to "gaffes," thus underscoring how he's a novice who doesn't know anything about anything.

the reality is that he's probably less gaffe prone than most other major politicians, but this line of attack has been approved of and disseminated amongst the right wing shock troops.

 

[mobvok]

What would the "procedure" be like if a tie happened?
I know how in socialist Germany that would be done, but in the US...?

If there is a tie, then it jumps to the Democratic-controlled House of Representatives. Obama FTW.

I don't think this has happened since the 1800s, although that was the original goal for most elections when the Constitution was drafted in the 1700s.

Obama's committed gaffes and Bush has committed gaffes, but I think one key to understanding the difference is that Bush gives out nicknames like "Turd Blossom" to his close aides and friends. There's a general frat demeanor to Bush. (And I think that's something he's tried to cultivate also. Not an "intellectual", but just a good boy from Texas with a ranch)

 

[maycocksean]

Bullcrap. Can I have an example? I have yet to see you criticize him, and everyone in here has tossed aside ANY criticism of him,

This is such crap! As you've surely read a few others have already posted their criticisms of Obama and I'll post my own, provided you can do the same for McCain/Bush. The first rule of someone who is actually engaged in critical thinking is that is an ability to critique your own position. You have shown yourself completely incapable of--or more likely, unwilling--doing so. I don't know how you and folks like Sting can expect to be taken remotely seriously if you can't demonstrate even a little bit of criticism of your "party line."

As to Obama winning in a landslide. . .I'm still not certain that he'll win at all.

 

[maycocksean]

Not necessarily. But the constant Bush-McCain references are low, and I don't think the intelligent voters will fall for it given the numerous differences between the two. If that's the best that the Dems can do, they might be in trouble.

You mean voters who say things like this:

Kathie Steigerwald, a Dearborn, Michigan businesswoman who said she voted for Hillary Clinton but now plans to support McCain, offered an especially succinct recital of a narrative on which other interviewees offered numerous variations:

"I feel John McCain is a true American and I want to support a true American," she said.

But isn't Obama a "true American?" she was asked.

"I don't know," she said after a measured pause. "I question it."

Why?

"I don't know—maybe because of his name?"


Maybe this makes me an elitist but this kind of reasoning is just plain stupid, and the people who vote based on this are just plain stupid.

 

[BVS]

what we're getting in this thread is a parroting of one specific line of attack that's bouncing around the right wing blogosphere/echo chamber (from Rush to Michelle Malkin to Glen Beck) -- that Obama is prone to "gaffes," thus underscoring how he's a novice who doesn't know anything about anything.

That's exactly what this is. These guys have been blindly defending a man for eight years that has come off as one of the least intelligent presidents we've ever had, and I'm sure many have been secretly embarassed about this, but they couldn't really do anything about it. So they've been gathering up everything they can and they talk about them over and over, looping these soundbytes, so their audience goes from "well the only reason he will get elected is he's very well spoken black man", to "this guy's a moron". The audiences are like puddy in these guys hands. It's actually quite funny. You can hear it in their callers.

 

[Vincent Vega]

If there is a tie, then it jumps to the Democratic-controlled House of Representatives. Obama FTW.

I don't think this has happened since the 1800s, although that was the original goal for most elections when the Constitution was drafted in the 1700s.

Interesting, didn't know that. So McCain should make damn sure that it's gonna be 270 at least, though I guess it will be all but a tie anyways.

 

[A_Wanderer]

what we're getting in this thread is a parroting of one specific line of attack that's bouncing around the right wing blogosphere/echo chamber (from Rush to Michelle Malkin to Glen Beck) -- that Obama is prone to "gaffes," thus underscoring how he's a novice who doesn't know anything about anything.

the reality is that he's probably less gaffe prone than most other major politicians, but this line of attack has been approved of and disseminated amongst the right wing shock troops.

That you think the right blogosphere stretches from Rush to Malkin shows a nice huge blind spot.

 

[Strongbow]

You have shown yourself completely incapable of--or more likely, unwilling--doing so. I don't know how you and folks like Sting can expect to be taken remotely seriously if you can't demonstrate even a little bit of criticism of your "party line."

Despite this being a forum with only a small number of Bush supporters and there are threads with multiple posts expressing only one side of a political debate, several of the Bush supporters including myself have expressed views that are not in line with the mainstream views of the Republican Party. I support gun control laws similar to those in the United Kingdom and Ireland, I actually agree more with Obama on Tax policy than I do McCain, have positions on immigration that are more in line with most Democrats than Republicans, support Universal Health Care, and agree with the Democrats more than the Republicans on several social issues.

 

[2861U2]

This is such crap! As you've surely read a few others have already posted their criticisms of Obama and I'll post my own, provided you can do the same for McCain/Bush.

You must not have read many of the threads in this forum. I can't tell you how many times I've criticized John McCain and have stated the policies of his that I disagree with, and will do so again if you would like.

I've seen far more criticism of McCain by the small number of conservatives here than I have seen of Obama by the vast number of liberals in here.

 

[2861U2]

You mean voters who say things like this:

Kathie Steigerwald, a Dearborn, Michigan businesswoman who said she voted for Hillary Clinton but now plans to support McCain, offered an especially succinct recital of a narrative on which other interviewees offered numerous variations:

"I feel John McCain is a true American and I want to support a true American," she said.

But isn't Obama a "true American?" she was asked.

"I don't know," she said after a measured pause. "I question it."

Why?

"I don't know—maybe because of his name?"


Maybe this makes me an elitist but this kind of reasoning is just plain stupid, and the people who vote based on this are just plain stupid.

And it's the fault of the McCain campaign or conservatives in general that she feels that way?

 

[Diemen]

I've seen far more criticism of McCain by the small number of conservatives here than I have seen of Obama by the vast number of liberals in here.

Just a little while ago you claimed that no one ever criticized Obama here, so forgive me if I don't take the above statement too seriously.

 

[2861U2]

That's exactly what this is. These guys have been blindly defending a man for eight years that has come off as one of the least intelligent presidents we've ever had, and I'm sure many have been secretly embarassed about this, but they couldn't really do anything about it. So they've been gathering up everything they can and they talk about them over and over, looping these soundbytes, so their audience goes from "well the only reason he will get elected is he's very well spoken black man", to "this guy's a moron". The audiences are like puddy in these guys hands. It's actually quite funny. You can hear it in their callers.

For someone who talks constantly about Glenn Beck and Rush and Malkin and others, it would help to listen to them before saying such dumb things. Show me when any of these people have said an Obama victory would only be because he's a "well spoken black man." Most conservatives commentators I know have praised Obama in some occasions.

Honestly, do you even listen to Beck or Rush? I'd like to know how often you frequent their programming. What exactly do you "hear in their callers?"

But what do I know... I'm just putty in the hands of Rush Limbaugh.

 

[Irvine511]

That you think the right blogosphere stretches from Rush to Malkin shows a nice huge blind spot.

erm, those were just two examples.

i am talking about the highly organized right wing blogosphere/echo chamber, which includes Rush and Malkin, as well as Drudge, Hugh Hewitt, Hannity, Beck, Coulter, Fox News, etc. the punditry who sell books.

i am not talking about, say, Glenn Reynolds.

 

[deep]

I really hope this isn't true.

Obama seems like a decent guy.


I can't believe he would treat her so poorly.

Clinton doesn't seem to be high on Obama's list

By Adam Nagourney
Tuesday, July 29, 2008

WASHINGTON: When Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton abandoned her bid for the presidency and endorsed Senator Barack Obama in June, she made clear that she was interested in becoming his running mate, and Obama and his associates signaled respectfully that she would get full consideration.

But there is mounting evidence that Obama's interest in Clinton for the post has faded considerably — if, in fact, she ever really was a strong contender to be on the ticket with him.

In conversations, Obama's advisers discuss Clinton's role at the Democratic convention next month in a way that suggests they are not thinking of her arriving in Denver as Obama's running mate.

When Obama appeared Sunday on "Meet the Press" on NBC he offered a description of the kind of person he was looking for — hinting that it would not be someone who was identified strongly with Washington, a choice that would appear to leave out Clinton — that his associates said reflected the lack of serious thought being given to Clinton for the post.

 

[Irvine511]

I can't believe he would treat her so poorly.

blame Bill.

 

[A_Wanderer]

If she was VP then she would only be one assassination away from the presidency.

 

[yolland]

I don't know that there's anyone in here who can credibly claim to have been even close to evenhanded in their posts on the campaign. Dread, maybe; Bluer White at times. The thing is, with the exception of a few threads, we haven't really been debating the actual campaign issues and developing arguments for or against particular candidates' proposals for addressing them. The focus has mostly been on the personality contest--the gaffes!! the flip-flops!! the skeletons in the closet!!--as if the candidates were figureheads and little else. You're not likely to get an even remotely balanced dialogue out of that approach, and I'm not sure how many of us really want one.

 

[coemgen]

Here's who Obama's going to pick . . . Kaine.

Kaine 'very, very high' on VP shortlist - Ben Smith and Amie Parnes - Politico.com

 

[Irvine511]

I don't know that there's anyone in here who can credibly claim to have been even close to evenhanded in their posts on the campaign. Dread, maybe; Bluer White at times. The thing is, with the exception of a few threads, we haven't really been debating the actual campaign issues and developing arguments for or against particular candidates' proposals for addressing them. The focus has mostly been on the personality contest--the gaffes!! the flip-flops!! the skeletons in the closet!!--as if the candidates were figureheads and little else. You're not likely to get an even remotely balanced dialogue out of that approach, and I'm not sure how many of us really want one.

i wonder if this post isn't actually an indictment of the entire political system and underscores the fact that, ultimately, the differences between McCain and Obama are rather small.

though, quite honestly, i feel like this campaign has been a big improvement from 2004 where it was "if you don't vote for me, you'll be killed by Al Qaeda."

 

[BVS]

For someone who talks constantly about Glenn Beck and Rush and Malkin and others, it would help to listen to them before saying such dumb things. Show me when any of these people have said an Obama victory would only be because he's a "well spoken black man." Most conservatives commentators I know have praised Obama in some occasions.

Honestly, do you even listen to Beck or Rush? I'd like to know how often you frequent their programming. What exactly do you "hear in their callers?"

But what do I know... I'm just putty in the hands of Rush Limbaugh.

I listen to Hannity, Rush, and Beck's show every day of the work week, I spend hours in my car so I'm constantly switching back and forth between these shows, NPR, and music.

You should really read people's post because you really look foolish when you make these types of posts. I said the AUDIENCE went from saying one thing to saying another.

Your post:

Tell that to all the people who want to vote for Obama just because he is young, black, handsome, and a good speaker.

http://forum.interference.com/f199/official-campaign-2008-hot-stove-thread-168210-43.html

Now this sentiment was very common amongst the audiences of those listed above. Thank you for proving my point.

 

[trevster2k]

though, quite honestly, i feel like this campaign has been a big improvement from 2004 where it was "if you don't vote for me, you'll be killed by Al Qaeda."

Waaaaaitttt for it!!

And yes, I agree with yolland's point of the possible condemnation of the US political system ( not that our system is without it faults either) but from up here, there is way more focus on bullshit topics like whether or not Obama should have visited wounded soldiers in Germany as opposed to the fact that your house is burning down and no one seems to give a shit about anything except sound bites. Pretty much everyone I know will be utterly devastated if the U.S does not vote in Obama, not because he is the second coming but because after 8 years of Republican bullshit and Bushtard at the helm, it's time to go in a different direction. I miss the old US of A. I don't like this present incarnation.

And if people thought the world was pissed off after the 2004 election, that's nothing compared to the reaction if McCain gets in. Sadly, the largest voting block in the U.S are the 40% of the population who are either disenfranchised, ambivalent or just fed up with the whole system and don't vote. So from my point of view, I can see McCain winning, and the decline of the American empire will continue. I certainly hope this does not come to pass.

 

[maycocksean]

Despite this being a forum with only a small number of Bush supporters and there are threads with multiple posts expressing only one side of a political debate, several of the Bush supporters including myself have expressed views that are not in line with the mainstream views of the Republican Party. I support gun control laws similar to those in the United Kingdom and Ireland, I actually agree more with Obama on Tax policy than I do McCain, have positions on immigration that are more in line with most Democrats than Republicans, support Universal Health Care, and agree with the Democrats more than the Republicans on several social issues.

Credit where credit is due.

 

[maycocksean]

You must not have read many of the threads in this forum. I can't tell you how many times I've criticized John McCain and have stated the policies of his that I disagree with, and will do so again if you would like.

I've seen far more criticism of McCain by the small number of conservatives here than I have seen of Obama by the vast number of liberals in here.

Actually, I have and I thought you might call me on my characterization of your views of McCain. You have been clear about your distaste for McCain in the past. I'm assuming that your die-hard defense of him now is because he's the Republican nominee and any Republican even one like McCain is better than a Dem getting the White House.

Which is fine. If you really do believe in conservative ideology than this stance makes sense to me. It's just that that's not how you come across in your posts. It sounds like now McCain is this Obama-like character who can do no wrong and clearly you don't really believe that even though that is the stance you tend to take in your posts.

Far be it from me to tell you how to post--truth be told in a weird kind of way I always look forward to your posts because they always make my jaw drop--but I'm just saying if you keep employing the "take-no-prisoners" histrionic style that is favored by some of these radio hosts you won't be taken seriously. Perhaps that's not particularly important to you. . .I don't know. . .I'm just sayin'.