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Old 01-31-2003, 11:12 AM   #16
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Oh oh hoooo, Sula anwering to a thread of mine. What an honor to see you´re still alive, missus.

How´s it going, friend?
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Old 01-31-2003, 11:48 AM   #17
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in germany, my cousins arent taught of world war 2.

dont ask, dont tell.

ofcourse everyone knows what happened, and a large deal of the population is still alive from that time but still. why is this not being taught to the children?
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Old 01-31-2003, 11:51 AM   #18
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hiphop. yep, still alive and kickin. will try to call soon too if i can.
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Old 01-31-2003, 12:54 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars

But when we discuss openly, we have to be ready for statements like that, and not just brush them off as stupid.
Point noted.

However your other statement about perhaps portraying the wrong image (and sortof the whole flavor of this thread) of slavery by the inclusion of the fact that a handful of blacks also had slaves I disagree with.

I knew this from Grade 9 history, and it didn't change my perception of the overall evil of slavery nor did it cause me to believe that whites were any less to blame for slavery than what I believed in Grade 8.

My perception of his comment was that there is possibly a master plan to deliberately decieve students of history and slavery into believing that the only slave owners were white and all the slaves were black.

A simple read of the history of slavery as a concept will tell you that is not so.
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Old 01-31-2003, 05:20 PM   #20
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To answer the original post asking for a universal history, I highly suggest reading Jared Diamond's "Guns, Germs And Steel"(The Fates of Human Societies). Diamond deals with human history dating pretty much from our early ancestors up until the age of "guns, germs and steel" as he calls it, and by no means centers only around Europe. It truly is a global history and not a eurocentric one. It's a very interesting, illuminating and well-written read.

The basic question he tries to answer is why did Europe become the technologically advanced powerhouse it is today while much of Africa and smaller nations are still living relatively the same as they did a millenia ago? Why did European germs affect the native peoples of conquered countries so dramatically and native germs not affect Europeans to the same extent? And he goes well beyond and behind the obvious answers of "they developed technology first" or "they became more immune to disease" to really delve into how and more importanty why they developed it first - from both a social and geographic standpoint. It's really a fascinating book.
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Old 02-01-2003, 07:19 PM   #21
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(...) and it didn't change my perception of the overall evil of slavery nor did it cause me to believe that whites were any less to blame for slavery than what I believed in Grade 8.
exactly
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Old 02-01-2003, 07:26 PM   #22
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Thanks for your suggestion, Diemen. I might look for it.

I think, too, that its very important if we compile a Universal history, the Ethiopian part should be written by an Ethiopian, the South African part by a South African, the American part by an American, the Iraqi part by an Iraqian, the Indoniesian part by an Indonesian, the Irish part by Bono, and the Vatican part by the Pope.
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Old 02-02-2003, 05:28 PM   #23
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Can "the truth" be taught?
Or can we just try to get the people to use their own brain?

If they do it i'd be glad, even if i know that there is the risk that lots of those people wouldn't share my ideas of right and wrong

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Old 02-02-2003, 08:37 PM   #24
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What a silly statement. Whether or not a few uppity blacks (and it is certainly a few) betrayed their own brothers and sisters hardly changes the fact that the blame for the brutal genoicide and slavery of millions of black Africans in America lies squarely where it does, and it aint on black people.
Gabrielvox,
Usually I lean toward your perception if not exact dialogue, but this is just inflamatory.
First we were not the first Black slaveholders, our European friends beat us to that, though we were the last. Also like others said you have to play into the politics in Africa, specifically tribal wars and the reasons they sold off rival tribes as slaves.
I also believe slavery of the the traditional kind still exist in Africa and Asia (seen on 60 minutes a coulpe of years ago with rich Islamic families). Then you can get into white slavery, specifically prostitution slaves in western Europe and the former Soviet Union.
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Old 02-02-2003, 09:25 PM   #25
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Well why dont we all just agree that slavery is bad no matter who is doing. I understand that blacks were the targets but to fight over who holds the most blame isnt something that young children should be learning about. We are trying to install them with basic pricapals and this is one of them.

I would be intrested to know how much certain countries learn about the ones closest to them. For myself i can remember every year we would learn specifically about one country along with my own country. Then ever second year we would focus on US. I would be intrested, if anyone can remeber, how much does Americans learn about Canada and Mexico? I can remember learning about China Russia Germany England and Africa. Anyone else remember?
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Old 02-02-2003, 09:34 PM   #26
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Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars
I agree, melon. Now, how can we define truth, then?
Easily: there is no "Truth" (<--note the capital "T"). "Truth" is defined by the person writing the history, the person translating the foreign language text, the worldview of the person writing it, the "important" part as defined by the editor, etc.

We need to teach reasonable theories of history, and foster individual scholarship and critical thought. In literature, just because we don't know exactly what went on in Charlotte Bronte's head when she wrote "Jane Eyre," it doesn't mean that we don't read it and analyze it. We just do it with the reality that these are subjective interpretations, and, as long as we have justification for our interpretation, it is, for all intensive purposes, "correct."

Sure, that may seem like some intellectual disease that only intellectuals can afford (), but why should we settle for the wrong answer, merely because it is the simplest answer?

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Old 02-03-2003, 07:23 AM   #27
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Okey, okey, y know, I did this stuff like analyzing the different aspects of german litterature critique of Lord Byron over a time span of 150 years.

It wasn´t that simple. It fucked with my mind. And especially those were "just" criticians - not him.

With my intellectual disease blah I just wanted to say that we tend to overanalyse sometimes. In my opinion, the transcended feeling is the most important thing. What that person will make out of it in compare to that person... well. Its a piece of art so its free for interpretation.

I dig Lord Byron.

And then, I think we get nearer to the "truth" (if we can speak of a truth in that sense) when, in history, everyone tells his own story.
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Old 02-03-2003, 02:25 PM   #28
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Having earned a degree in history and in education I am not ashamed to admit that I have not found the "Truth" in history. To break it down, history is a systematic way of thinking about the past. No two ways are exactly alike, this is what makes teaching it challenging and rewarding.

Just as a side note, many high schools are now offering a world cultures class as well as a world history class. I am teaching three sections of this course this semester and it focuses on non western history and culture.
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Old 02-03-2003, 07:03 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by Scarletwine


Gabrielvox,
Usually I lean toward your perception if not exact dialogue, but this is just inflamatory.
First we were not the first Black slaveholders, our European friends beat us to that, though we were the last. Also like others said you have to play into the politics in Africa, specifically tribal wars and the reasons they sold off rival tribes as slaves.
I also believe slavery of the the traditional kind still exist in Africa and Asia (seen on 60 minutes a coulpe of years ago with rich Islamic families). Then you can get into white slavery, specifically prostitution slaves in western Europe and the former Soviet Union.
Scarletwine please dont read insult into what I was saying, that wasn't my intention. My point was about slavery as it occured in America.

While it may not be a pleasant thought, white Americans were the ones most responsible for the type of brutal genocidal slavery and resultant lingering racism problems that seemed to be more of a North Amercian phenomenon.

In other cultures, slavery was not always based on race. My understanding was that it had more to do with social status. In addition in most other cultures while slavery was part of the fabric of their society, their religions taught them to treat their slaves well and not abuse them. For some reason these principles of basic human dignity even for those indentured to their owners just didn't make it to America as a general rule.

And, as you mentioned, America was one of the last countries to abolish slavery based on race.
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Old 02-03-2003, 07:49 PM   #30
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While it may not be a pleasant thought, white Americans were the ones most responsible for the type of brutal genocidal slavery and resultant lingering racism problems.


I think racism is/ was spread in all the world though.
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