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Old 02-19-2013, 11:39 PM   #106
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We were not a Christian nation then nor now but have always been a nation of Christians
What does this even mean? The US has always been a nation of Christians? Interesting.

When do you suppose people starting using the catch-all phrase "Christians" in modern times?
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Old 02-19-2013, 11:54 PM   #107
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Still waiting to hear about "Judeo-Christian" values too

(speaking of neologistic catch-alls)
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Old 02-20-2013, 07:42 AM   #108
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Indy I'm not sure what's your point? Are you saying the USA should strictly be a religious society, ie Christian only?

Or are you willing to accept other faiths and non religious?

Your statement about secular government and religious society doesn't seem to add up. Shouldn't it be secular for both?

And our country's motto for the longest time was E.Pluribus Unum...out of many, one. We didnt adapt In God We Trust until the 1950s.

And no atheist is saying that the all founding fathers were atheist, but many of them were not as die hard religious as you want. If they wanted us to be a strictly religious country then they could have made it clear and you wouldn't have us secularists even talking back.

This country is great in that you can have your belief and not face prosecution. No one is stopping you from practicing your belief, that's what your churches and home are for.
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Old 02-20-2013, 08:51 AM   #109
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Is there any evidence whatsoever that atheists, agnostics, and/or other non-Christian Americans are somehow deficient at citizenship and therefore proof that we ahould be "a religious people with a secular goveremt"? If we simply look at red states vs blue states and assume that red states are more Christian than the blue, it's thuddingly obvious that the blue states are vastly superior by nearly every measure of human development (public health, education, income). Take secular Massachusetts and compare it to religious Mississippi. It's not even close.

On a global scale, seems the more secular a people become (Canada, the UK, Scandinavia) the more successful it becomes especially when compared to highly religious societies (Iran, the Middle East).

So why else assert the inherent superiority of American Christians? Other than cultural insecurity?

What's really being asserted in INDY's posts is pretty ugly.
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Old 02-20-2013, 09:06 AM   #110
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Is there any evidence whatsoever that atheists, agnostics, and/or other non-Christian Americans are somehow deficient at citizenship and therefore proof that we ahould be "a religious people with a secular goveremt"? If we simply look at red states vs blue states and assume that red states are more Christian than the blue, it's thuddingly obvious that the blue states are vastly superior by nearly every measure of human development (public health, education, income). Take secular Massachusetts and compare it to religious Mississippi. It's not even close.

On a global scale, seems the more secular a people become (Canada, the UK, Scandinavia) the more successful it becomes especially when compared to highly religious societies (Iran, the Middle East).

So why else assert the inherent superiority of American Christians? Other than cultural insecurity?

What's really being asserted in INDY's posts is pretty ugly.
I agree.
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Old 02-20-2013, 06:25 PM   #111
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just look at these American Christians:

John McCain uses compassion to defend immigration in explosive fiesty town hall meeting - YouTube

at 1:40 McCain states, "we're a Judeo-Christian nation" which is why you can't deport people and their children who have been here for 50 years. and the response! well, i can guarantee you this isn't a room full of atheists.

true fact: i was in PHX this weekend, and McCain was on my flight. he slept most of the way, mouth wide open. i'm sure he knew he was going to need it.
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Old 02-20-2013, 06:37 PM   #112
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Judeo-Christian...

There's that non word again. At least we know where Indy is parroting it from
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Old 02-20-2013, 06:44 PM   #113
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If we simply look at red states vs blue states and assume that red states are more Christian than the blue, it's thuddingly obvious that the blue states are vastly superior by nearly every measure of human development (public health, education, income). Take secular Massachusetts and compare it to religious Mississippi. It's not even close.
Which explains in no way why there is a migration from Blue to Red states occuring. Massachusetts lost an electoral vote in the 2010 census. In fact, didn't you yourself move from solid blue D.C. to Red or at least purple Virgina?
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On a global scale, seems the more secular a people become (Canada, the UK, Scandinavia) the more successful it becomes especially when compared to highly religious societies (Iran, the Middle East).
Which explains in no way why they (Europe anyway) now needs massive immigration from Muslim countries (since you brought them up) to fund their "successful" cradle-to-grave Welfare States.
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So why else assert the inherent superiority of American Christians? Other than cultural insecurity?
I think you misunderstand me on purpose. It's the value system not the theology or the citizenship of the individual. And as displayed in this thread they are hardly inherent... they must be taught, practiced and passed-down from generation to generation.

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What's really being asserted in INDY's posts is pretty ugly.
To a cultural relativist I would imagine so.
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Old 02-20-2013, 07:03 PM   #114
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"value system", you see, Irvin. Something vague that is never defined, so you can't ask any questions about. Except that they're mysterious "Judeo-Christian" values. A bullshit phrase that I can only see as being beneficial to the Christian side, if not a bit patronizing to the Judeo side. And a term that he clearly doesn't understand the history of, much like his use of the term "Christian". And those pathetic Europeans and their immigration. You won't find any pansy ass phrases in American history supporting no dirty immigration. But anyway, no questions, please. Move along
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Old 02-20-2013, 07:18 PM   #115
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Indy I'm not sure what's your point? Are you saying the USA should strictly be a religious society, ie Christian only?

Or are you willing to accept other faiths and non religious?
I believe in the promise of the First Amendment and freedom of religious conscience. That's includes freedom of no religion.

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And no atheist is saying that the all founding fathers were atheist, but many of them were not as die hard religious as you want. If they wanted us to be a strictly religious country then they could have made it clear and you wouldn't have us secularists even talking back.
I have never said that all of them practiced Christianity, believed in the Trinity or were morally perfect humans. I do say that none of them were atheists and all were Bible literate, believed in a judging God and felt America could not survive without a God-based values system.

The Founders never accepted the Enlightenment (secular) theory that man is basically good. They instead believed the Bible's teaching that man is flawed and, in a free society especially, need God to make a moral society. Man's heart could not be trusted and they certainly didn't want the tyranny of a government imposed value system.

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This country is great in that you can have your belief and not face prosecution. No one is stopping you from practicing your belief, that's what your churches and home are for.
Churches and home!! In other words, freedom to worship yes... freedom to practice religion, not so much.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof... I believe in both clauses, do you?
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Old 02-20-2013, 07:27 PM   #116
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Just for fun and to add context to my own thread. I saw this at a flea-market over the weekend. It's from 1963. Before Vietnam, "Is God Dead" on Time, Roe v Wade, racial tensions of the 60's, Watergate, AIDS, waterboarding and other issues that made people question the nation's morals, i.e., the Good ol' days.



Also from 1963. Extremists taking over the GOP, where have I heard that before?

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Old 02-20-2013, 07:46 PM   #117
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The Founders never accepted the Enlightenment (secular) theory that man is basically good. They instead believed the Bible's teaching that man is flawed and, in a free society especially, need God to make a moral society. Man's heart could not be trusted and they certainly didn't want the tyranny of a government imposed value system.
I can't imagine how tormenting it must be to go through life believing you're a natural born shitbag, if not for the bible to tell you how to act
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Old 02-20-2013, 07:53 PM   #118
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Which explains in no way why there is a migration from Blue to Red states occuring. Massachusetts lost an electoral vote in the 2010 census.
You are mistakenly assuming that the changes in populations are attributable entirely to migration.

When in fact the largest reason for the change in population in a number of red states (like Arizona and Texas, both of which gained congressional seats) is due to Hispanic population increases. Great news for the GOP longterm...

Frankly we looked at buying up property in a red state because it's so unbelievably cheap. True story - I could buy a private island in the Florida Keys (with a lovely house on it) for the same amount as the house we bought in Toronto this winter. Or we could buy 2 or 3 enormous oceanfront homes there. I won't even get to what you can buy in places like Georgia or South Carolina.
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Old 02-20-2013, 07:56 PM   #119
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On an entirely separate note, I am still completely baffled by how much stock some Americans put into the founding fathers or their intentions. These were men of their time, who operated within the confines of their time. That is it.

Who cares what their intentions were centuries later? Who cares whether they envisioned America to be religious or not, Christian or Judeo-Christian or wiccan or whatever? What bearing does that have on the here and now? Are we all supposed to worship what some band of old white men wanted or intended hundreds of years ago? Great, let's go to the back of the line for most of us.
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Old 02-20-2013, 08:00 PM   #120
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Which explains in no way why there is a migration from Blue to Red states occuring. Massachusetts lost an electoral vote in the 2010 census. In fact, didn't you yourself move from solid blue D.C. to Red or at least purple Virgina?

Which explains in no way why they (Europe anyway) now needs massive immigration from Muslim countries (since you brought them up) to fund their "successful" cradle-to-grave Welfare States.

I think you misunderstand me on purpose. It's the value system not the theology or the citizenship of the individual. And as displayed in this thread they are hardly inherent... they must be taught, practiced and passed-down from generation to generation.

To a cultural relativist I would imagine so.


Do you think I have bad values, INDY?
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