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Old 02-14-2013, 08:20 AM   #91
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so that INDY doesn't feel alone, there's lots of people out there who are worried about our collective descent into chaos due to the Obama presidency, and the overrunning of traditional American society by hordes who's values aren't as good as ours:

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Stand and Fight
Posted By Wayne LaPierre On 4:32 PM 02/13/2013

By Wayne LaPierre

Before I tell you how the NRA and our members are going to Stand And Fight politically and in the courts, let’s acknowledge that all over this country, tens of millions of Americans are already preparing to Stand And Fight to protect their families and homes.

These good Americans are prudently getting ready to protect themselves.

It has always been sensible for good citizens to own and carry firearms for lawful protection against violent criminals who prey on decent people.

During the second Obama term, however, additional threats are growing. Latin American drug gangs have invaded every city of significant size in the United States. Phoenix is already one of the kidnapping capitals of the world, and though the states on the U.S./Mexico border may be the first places in the nation to suffer from cartel violence, by no means are they the last.

The president flagrantly defies the 2006 federal law ordering the construction of a secure border fence along the entire Mexican border. So the border today remains porous not only to people seeking jobs in the U.S., but to criminals whose jobs are murder, rape, robbery and kidnapping. Ominously, the border also remains open to agents of al Qaeda and other terrorist organizations. Numerous intelligence sources have confirmed that foreign terrorists have identified the southern U.S. border as their path of entry into the country.

When the next terrorist attack comes, the Obama administration won’t accept responsibility. Instead, it will do what it does every time: blame a scapegoat and count on Obama’s “mainstream” media enablers to go along.

A heinous act of mass murder—either by terrorists or by some psychotic who should have been locked up long ago—will be the pretext to unleash a tsunami of Gun Control.

No wonder Americans are buying guns in record numbers right now, while they still can and before their choice about which firearm is right for their family is taken away forever.

After Hurricane Sandy, we saw the hellish world that the gun prohibitionists see as their utopia. Looters ran wild in south Brooklyn. There was no food, water or electricity. And if you wanted to walk several miles to get supplies, you better get back before dark, or you might not get home at all.

Anti-gun New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg had already done everything he could to prevent law-abiding New Yorkers from owning guns, and he has made sure that no ordinary citizen will ever be allowed to carry a gun. He even refused to allow the National Guard into the city to restore civil order because Guardsmen carry guns!

Meanwhile, President Obama is leading this country to financial ruin, borrowing over a trillion dollars a year for phony “stimulus” spending and other payoffs for his political cronies. Nobody knows if or when the fiscal collapse will come, but if the country is broke, there likely won’t be enough money to pay for police protection. And the American people know it.

Hurricanes. Tornadoes. Riots. Terrorists. Gangs. Lone criminals. These are perils we are sure to face—not just maybe. It’s not paranoia to buy a gun. It’s survival. It’s responsible behavior, and it’s time we encourage law-abiding Americans to do just that.

Since the election, millions of Americans have been lining up in front of gun stores, Cabela’s and Bass Pro Shops exercising their freedom while they still have it. They are demonstrating they have a mass determination to buy, own and use firearms. Millions of Americans are using market forces like never before to demonstrate their ardent support for our firearm freedoms. That’s one of the very best ways we can Stand And Fight.

Inevitably, the anti-gun media and the gun-ban lobbies are demonizing the purchase of firearms. They call us “extremists” because we wonder whether we will be able to buy a semi-auto in three years or, even in some states, later this year. That’s despite the fact that President Obama long ago made clear that he wants to ban them all!

The media try to make rank-and-file Americans feel guilty about buying a gun. The enemies of freedom demonize gun buyers and portray us as social lepers. But we know the truth. We know that responsible gun ownership exemplifies what is good and right about America.

Responsible Americans realize that the world as we know it has changed. We, the American people, clearly see the daunting forces we will undoubtedly face: terrorists, crime, drug gangs, the possibility of Euro-style debt riots, civil unrest or natural disaster.

Gun owners are not buying firearms because they anticipate a confrontation with the government. Rather, we anticipate confrontations where the government isn’t there—or simply doesn’t show up in time.

To preserve the inalienable, individual human right to keep and bear arms—to withstand the siege that is coming—the NRA is building a four-year communications and resistance movement. The enemies of the Second Amendment will be met with unprecedented defiance, commitment and determination. We will Stand And Fight.

First, we are going to devise legal capability like never before. I fervently hope that President Obama does not get to appoint another anti-gun Supreme Court justice like Sonia Sotomayor or Elena Kagan. But he probably will, and we must meet that challenge. His chances of appointing a replacement for one of the five pro-rights justices in the 5-4 Heller and McDonald majorities are high. And there’s no doubt he is going to appoint a huge number of new judges to lifetime positions in the lower federal courts.

That means the federal courts are going to get worse and worse. So some cases, on which we might have improved our chances of victory by waiting a while, are going to have to be brought now.

Besides bringing affirmative pro-rights cases, we will also have to litigate against the flood of new anti-gun federal regulations that are coming, and against anti-gun laws that are going to be enacted in some of the states.

Second, we must strengthen the NRA like never before. We are, and always have been, a genuine grassroots organization. And never has your membership been more important. Never has the nra been more in need of your support.

The national media, with its slanted and inaccurate “news” coverage of the gun issue, has given the gun-ban groups the equivalent of hundreds of millions of dollars of free advertising.

Now, the threat is even greater. Michael Bloomberg and George Soros are each, individually, far wealthier than the entire National Rifle Association. When the NRA spends money on political advertising, we have to raise those funds from you—$20, $50, $250, or $1,000 at a time. In the last election, Bloomberg alone spent $16 million and that doesn’t even count the indirect spending by groups funded by Soros and his fellow billionaires.

The hard truth is that due to Bloomberg, Soros, and the rest of their ilk, the dangers require that we increase our presence all across the country—in Congress, the state capitols, and in your city and towns.

As we Stand And Fight, the third, and most important, part of our action plan demands that we organize like never before. That’s the most important part of all.

Every gun owner should be an active member of the NRA. Every gun owner should be sure that every member of his or her family is an active member.

For most of the last hundred years, a strong NRA has been the indispensable shield against the destruction of our nation’s Second Amendment rights. Now, an even stronger nra is the only chance gun owners have to withstand the coming siege.

This begins with remembering to keep your own membership active, or reactivate it if it has lapsed. It means reminding yourself, “I have a son and daughter who aren’t members and should be.” It means reaching out to your hunting and shooting friends and personally telling them why it’s so important that they join the NRA now, during this time of peril.

The NRA is launching a nationwide, full-court initiative to urge every gun owner, and every non-gun-owning lover of freedom, to join the NRA and fight this battle. I will personally be traveling all over America enlisting new members.

We must reach out to the tens of millions of gun owners who are not yet NRA members—to the gun owners who care about their own rights but who have been duped by Obama and the national media into believing that the Obama and Bloomberg gun controls will only affect other people. They are naively sitting on the sidelines, imagining themselves immune from the coming siege.

Yet no matter how much I travel, I can’t be everywhere. NRA members, though, can be everywhere. We already are. The 4 million of us belong to every community in the United States. We are the largest civil rights organization in the world, and we have been part of the fabric of America ever since 1871. So it is you, proud NRA members, who are the key to enlisting new members in the ranks of our army of freedom.

NRA grassroots has always been our Association’s greatest strength. To compete with Bloomberg and his gang, it must be much stronger still. Historically, we have always been able to rely on volunteers, and I’m going to ask you and need you to answer the call to help throughout the next four years.

Every year, shooting is becoming more and more popular, with more people engaging in the shooting sports for fun. More people are buying guns and trying new disciplines, such as 3-gun competitions, sporting clays, practical shooting and so on.

As we Stand And Fight, let’s continue to make the shooting sports one of the fastest-growing recreational activities in America. By doing so, and by telling others about it, we’ll popularize and make gun owning and shooting more mainstream than ever before. That will be even more effective if we remember to invite new people to participate and provide them with the responsible mentorship and guidance that the NRA has exemplified for over 140 years.

We can’t win the political war if we lose the cultural war. One of the great protectors of the Second Amendment is the popular, active, responsible use of firearms for shooting and hunting.

We don’t want America to become like England, where some of that nation’s outstanding rifle competitors keep their hobby a dark secret from their neighbors for fear of social disapproval. We’re not going to let the anti-gunners push us into that zone. As I remind people every day, we are the majority.

We have so much to be proud of as gun owners, shooters and freedom lovers. That pride, especially when it’s not hidden in the closet, is itself a form of protection for the Second Amendment.

We will not surrender. We will not appease. We will buy more guns than ever. We will use them for sport and lawful self-defense more than ever. We will grow the NRA more than ever. And we will be prouder than ever to be freedom-loving NRA patriots. And with your help, we will ensure that the Second Amendment remains America’s First Freedom.

We will Stand And Fight.

The Daily Caller Stand and Fight Print
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Old 02-14-2013, 10:50 AM   #92
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I really want to own a gun and an american flag now
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Old 02-14-2013, 01:22 PM   #93
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That fear mongering screed is everything that is wrong with American political discourse.
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Old 02-14-2013, 03:20 PM   #94
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Yep. Better get your guns now before mexicans and muslims come across our border.
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Old 02-14-2013, 03:45 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by Kieran McConville View Post
Jesus Jumping Jehosapha there is some serious horseshit going on in this thread. The teachings of Christianity are 100% opposed to a phenomenon like capitalism in its modern form. American civilisation is a hybrid with a little bit of protestant Christianity, a little bit of Enlightenment self-improvement, a little bit of plain old gold-digging, a dash of romance... it's no one single thing.

FUCK!
Co-signed
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Old 02-14-2013, 05:44 PM   #96
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There's a fuckload more than a "little bit of gold-digging" going on.
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Old 02-14-2013, 10:01 PM   #97
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That fear mongering screed is everything that is wrong with American political discourse.
Exactly.

And intelligent people are buying this nonsense.

It's not just that the right-wing media and associated mouthpieces are biased--it's that they are just blatantly untruthful.
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Old 02-14-2013, 11:21 PM   #98
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It's not just that the right-wing media and associated mouthpieces are biased--it's that they are just blatantly untruthful.
Exactly.

And I'm not sure which option would be worse: them being untruthful because they're genuinely ignorant, or them knowing full well what they're saying is untrue, but choosing to say it anyway.
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Old 02-15-2013, 12:00 PM   #99
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I do not understand how the success of an economy or nation or culture is tied to it's morals. And I know you have mentioned these yourself Indy: Was slavery not part of the US' early success? How about what was done to the native Americans? Was the war with Mexico that gained the US California etc an example of being a morally superior economy and nation or just a stronger one? The Japanese American Internments?

Were the British successful because they were superior morally as a culture at the time of Empire?

At what point do any of these things make a culture morally superior?

It really is a dumb conclusion to draw.

Plenty of land with natural resources and cheap labour, with a well trained army is often pretty much all it takes to come out on top.

You might as well say the poor deserve to be poor because they are immoral, sinful, while the rich are God's shining beacon unto the world. Can success not be attained through wrongful means?
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Old 02-15-2013, 12:27 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by LJT View Post

You might as well say the poor deserve to be poor because they are immoral, sinful, while the rich are God's shining beacon unto the world. Can success not be attained through wrongful means?

All success is by definition good. We have makers, and then we have takers.

This is what the Republicans have been saying since 1981.

Makes it much easier to slash entitlements.
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Old 02-15-2013, 02:03 PM   #101
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It's not just that the right-wing media and associated mouthpieces are biased--it's that they are just blatantly untruthful.
And none of that, from the perspective of the brass at the NRA (including LaPierre) is about the 2nd Amendment or the horseshit in that article.

The 2nd Amendment posturing and that kind of tripe is for the the Shaun Hannity's and the Ted Nugents of the world to ignorantly ape.

The LaPierre position is actually that of gun manufacturers and retailers.
And this is why it is so baffling to so many people. #politics101

All lobbies/special interests work like this.
Does anybody really, truly believe that Grover Norquist is just a principled 'small government proponent'? Hell no. He gets big money FROM big money in order to posture that argument so that he can keep their taxes low.

Otherwise, why give that money to him and Americans for Tax Reform? Why not give it to...any random conservative politician that also wants to keep taxes low? It's because Norquist has a specific charge and a boatload of cash.

The NRA works the same way. The Tobacco lobby works the same way.
The Health Insurance industry (see: the mandate) works the same way.

And they all have a public posture (always plausibly denied) that they can take. That they are somehow doing this for some...convoluted BS reason.

To sum, they prey on the ignorant. And it certainly works. Because people do love their guns. It's not as if they had to try hard to foster that belief.
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Old 02-15-2013, 07:34 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by LJT View Post
I do not understand how the success of an economy or nation or culture is tied to it's morals. And I know you have mentioned these yourself Indy: Was slavery not part of the US' early success? How about what was done to the native Americans? Was the war with Mexico that gained the US California etc an example of being a morally superior economy and nation or just a stronger one? The Japanese American Internments?

Were the British successful because they were superior morally as a culture at the time of Empire?

At what point do any of these things make a culture morally superior?

It really is a dumb conclusion to draw.
*Applauds* Thank. You.

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You might as well say the poor deserve to be poor because they are immoral, sinful, while the rich are God's shining beacon unto the world. Can success not be attained through wrongful means?
Not according to the Republicans, apparently. The first sentence of yours there has been their mantra for a long time now.

Also, LaPierre is both scary and a total dumbass.
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Old 02-19-2013, 09:24 PM   #103
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What also has a negative impact on job creation? Lack of demand. Corporations create jobs to satisfy demand, and if there is cyclically depressed demand, job creation isn't helped either. So there's a careful balancing act to play.
I'm a supply-sider, so I believe that demand is met with capital and entreprenuial risk-taking based on reward vs risk. High taxation and regulations cut into profits and sucks capital out of the private economy as government doesn't create wealth (only the conditions). They along with mandates such as Obamacare and wages set by forces other than the market (min wage, unions) also reduce profits which increases the risk of failure. There was plenty of demand for potatoes in the Soviet Union but no free market to set the price, allocate resources, provide quality labor, provide profit incentives or allow private property to be use wisely. And demand is also created through innovation, expansion into new territories, advertising, price marketing, etc.
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. The Affordable Care Act brings a new long-term semi-structural, semi-cyclical dynamic into play. Inequality of opportunity is sorely lacking in this country, and it will probably help with that. Like I said, all things equal, mandates on businesses and whatnot hurt job creation. But so does inequality. A society of better equality of opportunity is one that can create new ideas, new products, new demand, and new opportunities that create new jobs. So, like I said, it's a balancing act.
Well, I certainly believe in equality of opportunity but you can't guarantee equality of outcome, it wastes money and can only be accomplished through a larger and larger government. And markets develop to serve people of different economic circumstances. Plasma TVs and cellphones may start off sold only in specialty stores but eventually they become affordable to all at Wal*Mart. Same with healthcare for all but the most expensive procedures.

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Interest rates being low... that's something that I disagree with in strong times, and agree with in not-so-strong times. Now is clearly the latter, although I do worry about the Fed's promises to keep rates this low into 2015. But you and I probably fully agree that expansionary monetary policy and acts like the Community Reinvestment Act that are in effect when the economy is booming can have... rather negative consequences.
It would be nice if Americans began to be rewarded again for saving by earning actual interest on money in the bank. Interest rates at this point are being kept low for one reason, the debt would explode with anything approaching a typical interest rate.

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It's silly to doubt that, all things equal, stimulus creates jobs and economic activity in a recession. Would we have gone into absolute depression without it? Maybe not, but it's hard to say. However, stimulus is historically quite useful for battling down cyclical components of recessions, when recession is more or less happening because money vanished.
Well that presupposes responsible government spending prior to the downturn but we have been in serious deficit spending (stimulus) since 2001 and what is silly is to doubt that after 4 years of Obama's hyper-spending you can, as they say, spend and tax your way to prosperity. You can't and we aren't.

And what are getting for all this stimulus? As mark Steyn and others pointed out:
Quote:
the Golden Gate cost at the time $35 million — or about $530 million today. So, for the cost of Obama’s 2009 stimulus bill alone, we could have had 1,567 Golden Gate Bridges. Where are they?
No great bridges, dams, interstate systems or moon landings just an economy in which an $80 billion reduction in federal spending over 10 years (the sequester) is called by the president "economically damaging."

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The recovery does not teter on government spending, anymore at least. Government employment is down as of late. Government stimulus helped create private sector employment, yeah, but stimulus isn't happening anymore.
Then why did the president tell us during his State of the Union that the sequester (mandatory spending cuts) would likely stop the recovery (what there is of one) dead in its tracks? Why all the doom and gloom from economists, Dems and some GOPers? And why isn't annual trillion dollar debts considers stimulus if we're talking government spending?

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Amnesty is a rather conservative economic position, Indy. It is economically much the same as free trade; anything else is protectionism.
It's quite true there are those on the right (WSJ, Chamber of Commerce) that want open borders and cheap labor. But that is different than citizenship and conservatives believe in the preservation of the culture (language, customs, rule-of-law, assimilation) and one can argue for open borders or argue for a large Welfare State but to have both, to me, seems suicidal. (see California)
What benefits the country should guide immigration policy, not electoral college maps. Economical skills should be given priority, not the reunification of extended families.
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Its long-term impacts (a new base of workers to support our aging population, a new group of people hungry for success who can grow our economy, cheaper labor allows company to invest more in products that take more expensive labor to engineer and develop) are probably very good, and similar to the effects of free trade. I don't see you rushing out for protectionism, and for good reason. Lump of labor is a fallacy.
I'm sorry but you can't argue that jobs aren't coming back because of structural changes in our economy (less manufacturing, automation) and argue that we can never have enough low-skill labor. We already have enough low-skill labor (see youth and non-college educated unemployment rates) and more will only further depress low-end wages and decrease the labor participation rate.

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If the value of our money is decreasing so much, why is everything (expect for oil and gold) not seeing its price soar?
Higher energy prices add to the cost of everything and food prices reflect that. High energy costs also affect lower income families disproportionately but this president's response would be for more government subsidies and programs, not more drilling on federal lands or offshore.

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It goes in both directions. Obviously, a government that values liberal democracy and generally free markets over theocracy, fascism, communism, or whatever, is going to produce a stronger economy (and a society that I would much rather live in) than a government that values autocracy. I am more interested in why societies adopt certain beliefs. I hope we are beyond Social Darwinism here... you are probably smart enough to believe that there is not some sort of gene in non-white peoples that makes them inherently inferior to white people. So where are we left?
We could start with basic beliefs when it comes to the role of government and free enterprise. America was founded on the principle of limited government and from Alexis de Tocqueville to Ronald Reagan the stark difference between how Americans solve problems with free associations compared with Europeans that expect government to provide solutions has been noted and celebrated as "exceptional" and beneficial. For example America has ten times more non-profits and private charities than the leading European country in that category, Great Britain. The last survey I read pointed out that free enterprise was viewed with favor in Germany, 35% or something, and went steady down in other European countries. Americans viewed free enterprise by double Germany or 60 some percent. That sadly is changing here now. "You didn't build that" and so on. I could write for an hour on that subject.

When you get time I look forward to hearing from you where I got it wrong.
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Old 02-19-2013, 09:30 PM   #104
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When you get time I look forward to hearing from you where I got it wrong.
It was a fantastic response that I enjoyed reading. But I'll need a few days to adequately respond.
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Old 02-19-2013, 10:37 PM   #105
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Yes. In God We Trust....only took nearly 200 years for America to realize what the Founders wanted right? (And only took nearly half century after to put it on our coins first).
No it only took until the Declaration of Independence and its language of Natural Law and unalienable rights given by God (or the Creator if you're a Deist) to realize what the Founders saw as necessary for this union. Or the first Inauguration speech in 1789 to know what our first president meant:

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Such being the impressions under which I have, in obedience to the public summons, repaired to the present station, it would be peculiarly improper to omit in this first official act my fervent supplications to that Almighty Being who rules over the universe, who presides in the councils of nations, and whose providential aids can supply every human defect, that His benediction may consecrate to the liberties and happiness of the people of the United States a Government instituted by themselves for these essential purposes, and may enable every instrument employed in its administration to execute with success the functions allotted to his charge. In tendering this homage to the Great Author of every public and private good, I assure myself that it expresses your sentiments not less than my own, nor those of my fellow-citizens at large less than either. No people can be bound to acknowledge and adore the Invisible Hand which conducts the affairs of men more than those of the United States. Every step by which they have advanced to the character of an independent nation seems to have been distinguished by some token of providential agency; and in the important revolution just accomplished in the system of their united government the tranquil deliberations and voluntary consent of so many distinct communities from which the event has resulted can not be compared with the means by which most governments have been established without some return of pious gratitude, along with an humble anticipation of the future blessings which the past seem to presage. These reflections, arising out of the present crisis, have forced themselves too strongly on my mind to be suppressed. You will join with me, I trust, in thinking that there are none under the influence of which the proceedings of a new and free government can more auspiciously commence.
He said this, mind you, after placing his hand on the Bible and saying the oath of office, adding "so help me God" and then kissing the Bible. Funny custom this placing the hand on the Bible for oaths, courtrooms, etc for a secular society don't you think?

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Take the treaty of tripoli "the gov of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion" and signed by George Washington
And what was the context of that? Who was the audience? Well the audience was the Muslim governments of N Africa who we were trying to persuade not to pirate our vessels. We were explaining that we were not like the Christian Church-ruled states of previous centuries. We were not a Christian nation then nor now but have always been a nation of Christians. An important distinction.
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Please stop trying to rewrite history. A majority of the founders appeared to be deists and not Christian. And had atheism been a term then, it's fair to say a few would have adapted it.
OK, let's play is it true. Is that true? Who has walked around the buildings and monuments of Washington D.C., read the arguments for and guiding principles of, our nation... and concluded atheists were behind it?

Show of hands.

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The original constitution had one reference to religion and it was "no religious test shall be required".
Yes a secular government and a religious society, that was what was envisioned.
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All this under god stuff was adapted by congress many, many years later (1954) and its primary reason was to combat the fear of communism
I think maybe you are thinking of "under God" and the pledge. In God We Trust goes back much further than the 50's. Maybe you'd prefer the Great Seal and its Eye of Providence or the Liberty Bell's Bible verse or perhaps the Laus Deo "Praise be to God" on the cap of the Washington Monument.


I don't understand atheists that are so intolerant, so insecure in their beliefs that they feel the need to scrub history of its religious heritage and remove it presently from the public square.

And you accuse me of rewriting history. Oh well.
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