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Old 10-24-2013, 05:49 PM   #916
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The point is that the rights aren't self evident, we agree we should have certain rights, but that has been a process of centuries/millennia of philosophical thought on the matter, but even now we can't agree on what some of those rights should be. They are most certainly granted and frequently taken away. I know it is a fairly obvious point to make.

Rights are something society has to have a serious discussion on. The Human rights charter lays out a long, long list of rights that we pay a lot of lip service to.
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Old 10-24-2013, 05:59 PM   #917
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I think to an atheist or deist, the term "self evident" can probably be substituted here.

The general idea is that there are certain "rights" that can't be granted or taken away by any other person.
This is a more reasonable stance. LJT makes a good clarification.

But lets not forget we're addressing someone claiming your country is based on 'judeo-christian' values anointed by god
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Old 10-24-2013, 06:14 PM   #918
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lets not forget we're addressing someone claiming your country is based on 'judeo-christian' values anointed by god
The opening of the Declaration of Independence reads, "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal, and are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights."

That was the language of the Founding Fathers, not INDY's.
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Old 10-24-2013, 07:09 PM   #919
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It says judeo christian where? Because if we're just talking about rights from each persons individual creator, which religion shall we choose? Certainly there's no consensus
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Old 10-24-2013, 07:58 PM   #920
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if we're just talking about rights from each persons individual creator, which religion shall we choose? Certainly there's no consensus
The appeal to inalienable rights based not on a king's will but on divine purpose is the point.
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Old 10-24-2013, 08:01 PM   #921
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Let me just requote Indy here so you remember what we're refuting

"I believe our unalienable rights can only come from God, you have to reject that"
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Old 10-24-2013, 09:55 PM   #922
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Old 10-24-2013, 10:08 PM   #923
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From those statistics, the government shutdown of 17% of its workforce single-handedly affected the unemployment rate in this country by 0.6 percent. That's kind of staggering.
Yep. Because it's not only the government workers who were affected by the shutdown, but also those in the private sector dependent on the government (or on government workers).

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This is not progress.
That depends on how you look at it. The Republicans should be happy with this fact: Obama is shrinking the government.
Barack Obama, Government Job Slayer | PRAGMATIC CAPITALISM
So the Republicans finally got what they wanted, a smaller government.
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Old 10-25-2013, 08:27 AM   #924
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Old 10-25-2013, 10:15 AM   #925
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Let me just requote Indy here so you remember what we're refuting

"I believe our unalienable rights can only come from God, you have to reject that"
I think the writer(s) of the Declaration chose the word "Creator" very specifically - in order to be generic. Meaning - anyone can fill in the blank. Jefferson was known as a Deist - a believer in the idea of a perfect, transcendent being that may have ultimately "created" the universe and its governing principles - but is not intimately involved in the daily lives of men.

This is very similar to the Stoic idea of Logos - the governing "reason" of the universe. This also has a lot in common with Plato's Theory of Forms. While these men were mostly Christian, they were also heavily influenced by the Enlightenment - where God has a place in our lives, but it is far more distant than before.
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Old 10-25-2013, 10:37 AM   #926
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I never understood the almost creepy adoration some Americans have for the "founding fathers". We are talking about men, many (most?) of whom were slave owners at one time, who represented one specific faction of a nation - old, white, male and wealthy, and now, almost 250 years later, we are supposed to look at documents they penned as perfect and immovable, etc. It's just such a very bizarre attitude towards constitutional documents that frankly isn't seen anywhere else in the free world.
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Old 10-25-2013, 11:10 AM   #927
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I never understood the almost creepy adoration some Americans have for the "founding fathers". We are talking about men, many (most?) of whom were slave owners at one time, who represented one specific faction of a nation - old, white, male and wealthy, and now, almost 250 years later, we are supposed to look at documents they penned as perfect and immovable, etc. It's just such a very bizarre attitude towards constitutional documents that frankly isn't seen anywhere else in the free world.
Agreed. This hyperbolic veneration of the "wisdom of our fathers" appeals to a sort of mythological reading of our history that basically glosses over the complications of, you know, reality in favor of the "it was all so much better back then" nostalgia. Which leads to the constant quoting of past conservative figures (*cough*Reagan*cough*), despite the fact that these conservative heroes they quote would be run out of the Republican party if they ran today because they understood that compromise, rather than being a sign of weakness, was in fact essential to effective governance, and far more important than maintaining ideological purity.
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Old 10-25-2013, 11:10 AM   #928
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Originally Posted by AEON View Post
I think the writer(s) of the Declaration chose the word "Creator" very specifically - in order to be generic. Meaning - anyone can fill in the blank. Jefferson was known as a Deist - a believer in the idea of a perfect, transcendent being that may have ultimately "created" the universe and its governing principles - but is not intimately involved in the daily lives of men.

This is very similar to the Stoic idea of Logos - the governing "reason" of the universe. This also has a lot in common with Plato's Theory of Forms. While these men were mostly Christian, they were also heavily influenced by the Enlightenment - where God has a place in our lives, but it is far more distant than before.
I echo this belief.
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Old 10-25-2013, 11:11 AM   #929
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I think the writer(s) of the Declaration chose the word "Creator" very specifically - in order to be generic. Meaning - anyone can fill in the blank. Jefferson was known as a Deist - a believer in the idea of a perfect, transcendent being that may have ultimately "created" the universe and its governing principles - but is not intimately involved in the daily lives of men.

This is very similar to the Stoic idea of Logos - the governing "reason" of the universe. This also has a lot in common with Plato's Theory of Forms. While these men were mostly Christian, they were also heavily influenced by the Enlightenment - where God has a place in our lives, but it is far more distant than before.
Well stated.
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Old 10-25-2013, 11:14 AM   #930
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Agreed. This hyperbolic veneration of the "wisdom of our fathers" appeals to a sort of mythological reading of our history that basically glosses over the complications of, you know, reality in favor of the "it was all so much better back then" nostalgia. Which leads to the constant quoting of past conservative figures (*cough*Reagan*cough*), despite the fact that these conservative heroes they quote would be run out of the Republican party if they ran today because they understood that compromise, rather than being a sign of weakness, was in fact essential to effective governance, and far more important than maintaining ideological purity.
I get the impression that anyone who holds the founding fathers on such high pedestals are obsessed with thinking that America is so superior to other nations. Its kind of like they are also saying Jefferson, Washington, Hancock and all the others were like messiahs of some sort. Granted, many people in other countries may be very proud of their founders, or those who built their country up, but our attitude seems more snooty than simple national pride.
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