United States of Entropy - Page 60 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 10-22-2013, 02:18 PM   #886
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Strong Badia
Posts: 3,428
Local Time: 04:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
BECAUSE HISTORY (a more accurate term) isn't a deflection away from the present economy. It IS an explanation of the vitriol and irrationality of 30ish members of Congress and many of their constituents, none of whom have presented any useful economic proposals, let alone, as had been pointed out, done anything about jobs, jobs, jobs. This is evidence of the fact that BECAUSE THE ECONOMY has no substance behind it, and it's a mask for irrational anti-Obama hatred BECAUSE RACISM.

...

All this, plus the fact that no one on the right cared about debt until 1/21/09. Deficits sure didn't matter to Cheney.
If you'll remember, Bush's first attempt at TARP -- which would have exploded the debt and the deficit -- went down to shocking defeat in both houses of Congress. No one at the time wanted to incur the bill for that one. It was deeply unpopular publicly, it was unpopular politically, and there was nothing racist about that opposition then when it was a white man in the office.
__________________

__________________
nathan1977 is offline  
Old 10-22-2013, 03:21 PM   #887
Blue Crack Addict
 
anitram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NY
Posts: 16,271
Local Time: 11:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan1977 View Post
If you'll remember, Bush's first attempt at TARP -- which would have exploded the debt and the deficit -- went down to shocking defeat in both houses of Congress. No one at the time wanted to incur the bill for that one.
That's a very simplistic (and inaccurate) way to describe the opposition.

It wasn't simply about running up debt, it was that the first attempt at TARP was shoved down everyone's throats and the country was expected to sign up to $700bn of spending which was outlined in a ridiculous 3-page document that gave Hank Paulson broad powers to spend the money largely as he deemed it fit. It didn't go down to "shocking defeat", but was defeated rather narrowly at 228-205 and the amended version which last I recall was some 500-odd pages and actually provided detailed threshold tests and an outline of the risk appetite passed.
__________________

__________________
anitram is online now  
Old 10-22-2013, 03:39 PM   #888
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,641
Local Time: 10:19 PM
The very first real Tea Party gathering was on April 15th, 2009, on tax day, taxes from the PREVIOUS president. YET all the signs and all the speeches were about Obama and Obama's taxes, which he had yet passed one... To me that speaks volumes as to the Tea Party's motivations. I think if you're trying to sweep under the rug the role race plays, then you're purposely being obtuse.
__________________
BVS is online now  
Old 10-22-2013, 04:35 PM   #889
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Pearl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: NYC
Posts: 5,653
Local Time: 12:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BVS View Post
The very first real Tea Party gathering was on April 15th, 2009, on tax day, taxes from the PREVIOUS president. YET all the signs and all the speeches were about Obama and Obama's taxes, which he had yet passed one... To me that speaks volumes as to the Tea Party's motivations. I think if you're trying to sweep under the rug the role race plays, then you're purposely being obtuse.
It certainly speaks to the anxiety many were feeling over Obama. So many believe, and still do, that he intended to make the country socialist. There were others who did, and still, believe that he will set up a communist state, gulags and secret agents and all. This stems from his grandparents' and his mother's political beliefs, and also when he told Joe the Plumber that he wanted to "spread the wealth". Race did play a role, as shown with all those incredibly racist signs at rallies. But the major anxiety over anything communist related with some was definitely a fuel.
__________________
Pearl is offline  
Old 10-22-2013, 08:03 PM   #890
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The American Resistance
Posts: 4,754
Local Time: 10:19 PM
AFL-CIO Labor Group Warns Democrats About Proposed Medicare Cuts: 'Don't Try It... We Will Never Forget'

Quote:
AFL-CIO Labor Group Warns Democrats About Proposed Medicare Cuts: 'Don't Try It... We Will Never Forget'
By Matthew Mientka | Oct 22, 2013

As conservatives praise Congressional Republicans for this month’s government shutdown, liberal leaders on the left likewise sought to lockdown Democrats in the looming fight over entitlement spending in Washington.

“No politician… and I don’t care the political party… will get away with cutting Social Security, Medicare, or Medicaid benefits. Don’t try it,” AFL-CIO President Richard Trumka said in a speech to be given in Las Vegas, on Tuesday. “This warning goes double for Democrats,” he said. “We will never forget. We will never forgive. And we will never stop working to end your career.”

Like leaders of the right-wing Tea Party, left-wing labor unions are threatening to punish any bi-partisan dealmakers with political termination. Whereas AFL-CIO leaders had in the past threatened to merely withhold support for such Democrats, Trumka said they would now actively oppose them during future primary races, using massive amounts of political money.
I'm not hearing "compromise" or "bi-partisanship" or "reform."

I'm hearing extremism, Left-wing extremism. Democratic base extremism.
__________________
INDY500 is offline  
Old 10-22-2013, 08:41 PM   #891
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The American Resistance
Posts: 4,754
Local Time: 10:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
INDY, like the Tea Party, is showing us the intersection of religion and politics.

... the understanding of politics as a religion, with faith based policies, the refusal of facts and evidence from people who actually know things, and the fundamentalist tendency to shape the entire world through a single moment of clarity, as well as a fervent belief in the inerrancy of the "founding fathers." It's like talking to a bunch of dry drunks.

While debt is important, it is not the most pressing issue facing the economy.
You're projecting again.

As a secularist you would conflate political principles with religious orthodoxy. It's you that recognizes no power higher than The State, I do. I believe our unalienable rights can only come from God, you have to reject that. My faith preaches personal salvation, you place faith in the collective salvation of a powerful egalitarian government.

Everyone has a religion. I know what mine is, please don't project yours on me.
__________________
INDY500 is offline  
Old 10-22-2013, 08:46 PM   #892
Blue Crack Addict
 
PhilsFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Standing on the shore, facing east.
Posts: 18,858
Local Time: 11:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post
It's you that recognizes no power higher than The State, I do. I believe our unalienable rights can only come from God, you have to reject that. My faith preaches personal salvation, you place faith in the collective salvation of a powerful egalitarian government.
This is the stupidest thing I have ever read.
__________________
PhilsFan is offline  
Old 10-22-2013, 09:42 PM   #893
Resident Photo Buff
Forum Moderator
 
Diemen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Somewhere in middle America
Posts: 13,234
Local Time: 10:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post
You're projecting again.

As a secularist you would conflate political principles with religious orthodoxy. It's you that recognizes no power higher than The State, I do. I believe our unalienable rights can only come from God, you have to reject that. My faith preaches personal salvation, you place faith in the collective salvation of a powerful egalitarian government.
Talk about projecting.
__________________
Diemen is offline  
Old 10-23-2013, 03:08 AM   #894
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Strong Badia
Posts: 3,428
Local Time: 04:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by namkcuR View Post

I agree with you that the actual costs of healthcare are insane and that something should be done about it.

...

You think we shouldn't have been doing business with them in the first place? I agree. I wanted a single-payer system.
So did I.

Instead, we got a $700M website that doesn't work weeks later. We got an affordable care act that the nation's poorest states can't afford. And that millions of other Americans can't afford either. Read the below, and buckle up -- it's kind of an overwhelming ride.

http://themattwalshblog.com/2013/10/...merican-lives/

Someone, tell me how this is helping.
__________________
nathan1977 is offline  
Old 10-23-2013, 03:13 AM   #895
Rock n' Roll Doggie
FOB
 
Kieran McConville's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Auto Dafoe
Posts: 9,600
Local Time: 02:19 PM
Those referring to a 'single payer system' (I guess that's supposed to be something like Australian or UK style public health care?)... if the Tea Party was willing to wreck the joint over Obamacare, how on earth would the votes ever be there for honest to god socialised healthcare?

How?
__________________
Kieran McConville is online now  
Old 10-23-2013, 08:26 AM   #896
Blue Crack Addict
 
anitram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NY
Posts: 16,271
Local Time: 11:19 PM
Nevermind the Tea Party - try finding a handful of "regular" Republicans to support this clearly "liberal" measure. Good luck!

Quote:
"Many Republicans searching for something to say in defense of the disastrous shutdown strategy will say President Obama just doesn't try hard enough to communicate with Republicans," Durbin said. "But in a 'negotiation' meeting with the president, one GOP House Leader told the president: "I cannot even stand to look at you.'"

"What are the chances of an honest conversation with someone who has just said something so disrespectful?" the Illinois Democrat added.
__________________
anitram is online now  
Old 10-23-2013, 08:46 AM   #897
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The American Resistance
Posts: 4,754
Local Time: 10:19 PM
AFL-CIO Labor Group Warns Democrats About Proposed Medicare Cuts: 'Don't Try It... We Will Never Forget'

Just doesn't fit the narrative of "all the crazy" being on the Right does it?
__________________
INDY500 is offline  
Old 10-23-2013, 09:04 AM   #898
Blue Crack Addict
 
anitram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NY
Posts: 16,271
Local Time: 11:19 PM
That's actually fairly typical lobbying which is done not just by unions but by all sorts of conservative organizations as well, particularly the socially conservative ones. If you think that this is something unique, you don't know how Washington works.

The difference may be that the Wall Street bankers won't say out loud what the unions or the religious groups will.

When the Democrats elect 50 union leaders who the hijack Congress, we can talk.
__________________
anitram is online now  
Old 10-23-2013, 10:50 AM   #899
LJT
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
LJT's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Belfast
Posts: 5,039
Local Time: 05:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post
You're projecting again.

As a secularist you would conflate political principles with religious orthodoxy. It's you that recognizes no power higher than The State, I do. I believe our unalienable rights can only come from God, you have to reject that. My faith preaches personal salvation, you place faith in the collective salvation of a powerful egalitarian government.

Everyone has a religion. I know what mine is, please don't project yours on me.
This is incredibly moronic. Rights existed long before God came on the scene in varying forms, and will continue to exist long after God is forgotten, precisely because they are man made, something we collectively decided were 'good' things. So yeah I reject that those unalienable rights come from God. I place my faith in the power of people to do good for themselves and oh so importantly for each other, that is what the state is. I grant you that there has become a disconnect between the people and a the political class that runs most states now, who mainly work for lobbyists and corporations, but that is I imagine what most of us here do not want the state to be, it just so happens that universal healthcare is one of those things that is actually for the people, by the people.

You seem to view the state as some disembodied devil no matter what it does, separate from the people. Your not fighting for the state to be better than it is, your fighting for the destruction of any good it can still do, in effect your personal salvation is making you incredibly selfish towards those who have not or will not have your chances in life.

I also find it funny that unions remain portrayed as the devil as well, especially since its they who gave you your workplace protections, your weekend etc. You know they are made up of ordinary people to. They are not some whack jobs out to mug you.

Anyway I'm not incredibly sure about this ACA business, I mean I generally think you guys should go for the single payer system (if it is like the NHS here or in Australia), but it's a bit early to judge the effect of a policy that has only been implemented a few weeks ago? Its a bit hard to judge how the land lies.

It's odd to see a country polarised between the centre-right and the far right.
__________________
LJT is offline  
Old 10-23-2013, 11:26 AM   #900
Blue Crack Addict
 
nbcrusader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Southern California
Posts: 22,071
Local Time: 08:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BVS View Post
The very first real Tea Party gathering was on April 15th, 2009, on tax day, taxes from the PREVIOUS president. YET all the signs and all the speeches were about Obama and Obama's taxes, which he had yet passed one... To me that speaks volumes as to the Tea Party's motivations. I think if you're trying to sweep under the rug the role race plays, then you're purposely being obtuse.
This really doesn’t add anything to the BECAUSE RACISM dynamic. Obama ran for office on a big government (thus, higher taxes) platform. Opposition to the big government approach wasn’t going to disappear after the 2008 election.

As for some of the signs that appear at rallies, while I am not going to support or defend any specific sign, I would note there is a long history of using caricatures and effigies in political protest. And this forum was no different for sharing of demeaning illustrations during the prior administration. Can the current President be subject to the same level of political protest? How do we avoid a chilling of political speech?
__________________

__________________
nbcrusader is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:19 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com