United States of Entropy - Page 58 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 10-21-2013, 01:53 PM   #856
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,473
Local Time: 12:18 AM
So it's entirely fair to conclude that racism is one motivator for some members of the Tea Party. We've all demonstrated as much.

Next?
__________________

__________________
Irvine511 is online now  
Old 10-21-2013, 02:04 PM   #857
Blue Crack Addict
 
PhilsFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Standing on the shore, facing east.
Posts: 18,863
Local Time: 12:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan1977 View Post
I don't deny that race is a factor.
SO WHAT YOU ARE SAYlNG IS THAT YOU AGREE WITH IRVINE AND THIS WHOLE ARGUMENT IS IDIOTIC.
__________________

__________________
PhilsFan is offline  
Old 10-21-2013, 02:17 PM   #858
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,473
Local Time: 12:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilsFan View Post
Wait, why is it the Democrats' fault that I can't find work?
He was redirecting you.
__________________
Irvine511 is online now  
Old 10-21-2013, 02:23 PM   #859
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Strong Badia
Posts: 3,429
Local Time: 05:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilsFan View Post
SO WHAT YOU ARE SAYlNG IS THAT YOU AGREE WITH IRVINE AND THIS WHOLE ARGUMENT IS IDIOTIC.
No, it's not. I don't disagree that race is a factor. The question is to what extent, and to what extent we can then disregard them because racism.

As Digitize and others have posted repeatedly in this thread, there are cogent reasons for the Tea Party movement, and for a resurgent push on the Right for substantial economic reform. I believe that both the Tea Party and the Occupy movement had a great deal in common, including an anger motivated by profound economic inequalities brought about by twenty years of unregulated capitalism (though they obviously drew different conclusions). But I don't believe that Occupy was a bunch of unruly lazy hippies (although there were clearly a few), and I don't believe that the Tea Party is a bunch of people mad about having a black president (although there are clearly a few). I cry foul on the attempts by some on this thread to disregard the Right because it's easier to chortle about how much our black President pisses off one side than to actually engage the economic issues at hand.
__________________
nathan1977 is offline  
Old 10-21-2013, 02:33 PM   #860
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,473
Local Time: 12:18 AM
While I agree with much of what you just wrote, the biggest issue preventing any sort of compromise in DC is that you really do have 30 or so GOP House members who are reactionary, by any measure, and you have another block of Representatives who are in safely Red districts who are terrified of being primaried. And in such districts, where the further right you go the more popular you become, and especially if you look at geography and history, yes, race and Obama's "otherness" are major factors that motivate primary voters (the GOP voters who vote in primaries in off years).

Pretending this doesn't exist -- tin-foil hats! -- is as lazy and dismissive as pretending that this is all there is. Reality is much more complex, as is racism.

OWS is basically over, it has not even a fraction of the influence that the TP has on the right. To pretend they are the same in size, scope, scale, and influence is preposterous.

There are idiots on both sides, but the crazy of the moment is located squarely on the Right.
__________________
Irvine511 is online now  
Old 10-21-2013, 02:35 PM   #861
Blue Crack Addict
 
PhilsFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Standing on the shore, facing east.
Posts: 18,863
Local Time: 12:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan1977 View Post
No, it's not. I don't disagree that race is a factor. The question is to what extent, and to what extent we can then disregard them because racism.
Which is completely fair, but is simply not how you have been framing this. You've been acting as if Irvine is saying it's the only factor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan1977 View Post
As Digitize and others have posted repeatedly in this thread, there are cogent reasons for the Tea Party movement, and for a resurgent push on the Right for substantial economic reform. I believe that both the Tea Party and the Occupy movement had a great deal in common, including an anger motivated by profound economic inequalities brought about by twenty years of unregulated capitalism (though they obviously drew different conclusions). But I don't believe that Occupy was a bunch of unruly lazy hippies (although there were clearly a few), and I don't believe that the Tea Party is a bunch of people mad about having a black president (although there are clearly a few). I cry foul on the attempts by some on this thread to disregard the Right because it's easier to chortle about how much our black President pisses off one side than to actually engage the economic issues at hand.
I tend to avoid talking about the racism that influences segments of the Tea Party because it ends in multi-page arguments like this about the extent of the racism that miss the larger point. The larger point is that it's not a grassroots movement. It was a movement that was carefully constructed by big right-wing donors like the Koch's with the specific intent of taking the fury of a zestful but uninformed segment of the population with only a basic understand of national economics and direct that fury entirely at the left. It had a relatively simple strategy: warp the debate on health care into a battle of free markets vs. socialism and then tag every move the left tries to make subsequently as a continuance on that "march to socialism." And these people, who don't understand these economic issues all that much, bought it hook, line and sinker, exactly as the Tea Party organizers assumed they would.

I think where Irvine is beating you in this argument has nothing to do with race. It has to do with who is getting credit for the sustained life of the Tea Party. You think it has to do with citizens who had righteous, earned anger over the economic state of the US. What it really has to do with is intelligent political consultants who know how to twist things just right to get their way. They preyed upon the anger of those people and have led them into supporting and voting for policies that go against their own interests.
__________________
PhilsFan is offline  
Old 10-21-2013, 02:56 PM   #862
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,473
Local Time: 12:18 AM
Very well said.
__________________
Irvine511 is online now  
Old 10-21-2013, 03:52 PM   #863
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
U2DMfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: It's Inside A Black Hole
Posts: 6,637
Local Time: 11:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan1977 View Post
I believe that both the Tea Party and the Occupy movement had a great deal in common, including an anger motivated by profound economic inequalities brought about by twenty years of unregulated capitalism (though they obviously drew different conclusions).
And driven apart and kept separated by the corporate sell outs in both major parties and the corporate media that loves to sell the perpetual conflict.

Us vs Them, always.
__________________
U2DMfan is offline  
Old 10-21-2013, 06:24 PM   #864
Blue Crack Addict
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 26,955
Local Time: 09:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilsFan View Post
I tend to avoid talking about the racism that influences segments of the Tea Party because it ends in multi-page arguments like this about the extent of the racism that miss the larger point. The larger point is that it's not a grassroots movement. It was a movement that was carefully constructed by big right-wing donors like the Koch's with the specific intent of taking the fury of a zestful but uninformed segment of the population with only a basic understand of national economics and direct that fury entirely at the left. It had a relatively simple strategy: warp the debate on health care into a battle of free markets vs. socialism and then tag every move the left tries to make subsequently as a continuance on that "march to socialism." And these people, who don't understand these economic issues all that much, bought it hook, line and sinker, exactly as the Tea Party organizers assumed they would.

I think where Irvine is beating you in this argument has nothing to do with race. It has to do with who is getting credit for the sustained life of the Tea Party. You think it has to do with citizens who had righteous, earned anger over the economic state of the US. What it really has to do with is intelligent political consultants who know how to twist things just right to get their way. They preyed upon the anger of those people and have led them into supporting and voting for policies that go against their own interests.
Fantastically stated.
__________________
the tourist is offline  
Old 10-21-2013, 09:38 PM   #865
Blue Crack Distributor
 
Headache in a Suitcase's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Stateless
Posts: 56,357
Local Time: 12:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by U2DMfan View Post

And driven apart and kept separated by the corporate sell outs in both major parties and the corporate media that loves to sell the perpetual conflict.

Us vs Them, always.
__________________
Headache in a Suitcase is offline  
Old 10-21-2013, 10:05 PM   #866
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The American Resistance
Posts: 4,754
Local Time: 11:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilsFan View Post
Like, if you think gay marriage should be illegal, that's not your opinion, you're just wrong. You're the guy who thought inter-racial marriage should have been illegal 50 years ago.
That's your false analogy which is why blacks, especially religious blacks, remain opposed to SSM.
Quote:
That guy was wrong, and so are you.
Wasn't President Obama that guy up until last year?
__________________
INDY500 is offline  
Old 10-21-2013, 10:11 PM   #867
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Jive Turkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 13,646
Local Time: 12:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post
That's your false analogy which is why blacks, especially religious blacks, remain opposed to SSM.
The power of indoctrination plain to see.

Interesting that homophobia is also prevalent in black culture. You're showing your hand, Indy
__________________
Jive Turkey is offline  
Old 10-21-2013, 10:37 PM   #868
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The American Resistance
Posts: 4,754
Local Time: 11:18 PM
.
__________________
INDY500 is offline  
Old 10-21-2013, 10:38 PM   #869
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The American Resistance
Posts: 4,754
Local Time: 11:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilsFan View Post
The larger point is that it's not a grassroots movement.
Well it sure isn't an establishment, Karl Rove funded movement either. They don't care for the Tea Party anymore than you do.

Quote:
It was a movement that was carefully constructed by big right-wing donors like the Koch's
Does your concern for big money in politics include big left-wing donors like George Soros?
Quote:
with the specific intent of taking the fury of a zestful but uninformed segment of the population with only a basic understand of national economics
I would say the core belief of "uninformed" Tea Party types -- that this country is on an unsustainable debt trajectory fueled by reckless spending that can only be reversed by a return to our founding principles of limited government, federalism, private property rights and constitutional republicanism -- is a much more informed understanding of national economics than most of our national leaders... including the president.
__________________
INDY500 is offline  
Old 10-21-2013, 10:50 PM   #870
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Jive Turkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 13,646
Local Time: 12:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post
.
This is where Indy responded to me, then remembered he pretends to have me on ignore and would like to carry on the charade
__________________

__________________
Jive Turkey is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:18 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com