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Old 10-12-2013, 01:00 PM   #691
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I would like someone to make a compelling argument as to why I should respect the opinions of Republicans.
I would like someone to make a compelling argument as to why we should continue to centralize and expand authoritarian power over the states, individuals and the economy to either the Republicans or the Democrats.
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Old 10-12-2013, 01:46 PM   #692
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Indy, if we want to balance the budget, for the government that Republicans and Democrats both want (whether they say they do or not) we need more revenue, through growth.

How do we get more growth? I suppose that's where the serious argument resides.
No nation has taxed itself to prosperity have they?
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Cutting "entitlements" is a code word for talking about Medicaid, welfare and "freebies". Because Social Security and Medicare are going to be off limits, that's just the practical reality. So it's not part of the serious conversation.
They have to be, period. The president must lead as Reagan did in increasing the retirement age from 65 to 67. But this president fails to lead; he fails to acknowledge the obvious. He demagogues.

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The other part of this, Indy, is the reality about austerity. If you need more growth like a crackhead needs crack and cutting the hell out of everything shrinks the total economy, which has been clearly demonstrated in Europe and elsewhere, then what do you do?

We can't cut our way out of it. So what's the alternative?
How about we cut our way back to 2002?

2002 budget deficit; $157 billion
2012 budget deficit; $1.32 trillion

Yet blaming the deficit on two wars and tax cuts doesn't explain this:

2002 fiscal spending; $2 trillion or 19.1% of GDP
2012 fiscal spending; 3.8 trillion or 24.3% of GDP

Yet the unemployment rate was lower and economic growth was greater in 2002 wasn't it. And there was medical research, aid for the poor, open national parks and civilization was not in Road Warrior mode way back in 2002 either was it?

Worst of all!!

2002 total federal debt as percent of GDP; 58.8%
2012 total federal debt as percentage of GDP; 104.8%

As annual deficits accumulate the drag becomes even worse.

Total federal debt in real dollars is $17 trillion dollars. Spending on debt service alone will rise to almost $800 billion by the year 2021 and that assumes the artificially low interest rates are still in place,. What does that buy? What does that build? Whom does that assist? What does that do to our economy, our bond ratings, our future?

I agree, we need to grow revenues through economic growth but do tax increases spur growth? And we certainly will never grow ourselves out of debt as long as debt as a percentage of GDP is higher than GDP growth.

"The fastest falling deficit" that Irvine trumpets is still projected to be 4% of GDP. You think we will have economic growth of over 4% this year? During the next 3 years?
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Old 10-12-2013, 02:34 PM   #693
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But this president fails to lead; he fails to acknowledge the obvious. He demagogues.
Who do you see on the Republican side displaying real leadership on this issue?
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Old 10-12-2013, 04:47 PM   #694
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Who do see on the Republican side displaying real leadership on this issue?
You have to give Paul Ryan some credit for at least talking about entitlement reform.
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Old 10-12-2013, 06:01 PM   #695
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The president must lead as Reagan did in increasing the retirement age from 65 to 67. But this president fails to lead; he fails to acknowledge the obvious. He demagogues.
That age increase was phased in over a 22 year period. Obama's FY 2014 budget has a reduced cost of living adjustment for social security, which would save $130B over ten years.
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Old 10-12-2013, 07:43 PM   #696
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That age increase was phased in over a 22 year period. Obama's FY 2014 budget has a reduced cost of living adjustment for social security, which would save $130B over ten years.
All well and good unless you're on a fixed income and the interest rates on savings is being held at zero and the dollar is being devalued which inflates the price of commodities (sugar, wheat, corn, cattle, oil, etc) to a much greater degree.
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Old 10-12-2013, 09:10 PM   #697
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All well and good unless you're on a fixed income and the interest rates on savings is being held at zero and the dollar is being devalued which inflates the price of commodities (sugar, wheat, corn, cattle, oil, etc) to a much greater degree.
Chained CPI will still account for inflation, but to a lesser degree than CPI-W. House Republicans support chained CPI btw. Sounds like more than demagoguery to me.
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Old 10-12-2013, 10:34 PM   #698
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Who do you see on the Republican side displaying real leadership on this issue?
1) The GOP governors and legislatures that are practicing fiscal and regulatory restraint, promoting pro-growth policies and lowering taxes in their states.

2) Senators like Mike Lee and Ted Cruz that are pulling back the curtain on the deal-making, cronyism, corruption and phony politicians that run rampant in Washington. And pissing off all the right people in the process (The statists, the establishment GOP, Wall St corporatists and the mainstream media).

3) Concerned citizens (not necessarily all Republicans) that are letting their representatives know that they are disgusted by business as usual and a disconnected government and debt that grow and grow as if on autopilot.
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Old 10-13-2013, 02:11 PM   #699
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2) Senators like Mike Lee and Ted Cruz that are pulling back the curtain on the deal-making, cronyism, corruption and phony politicians that run rampant in Washington. And pissing off all the right people in the process (The statists, the establishment GOP, Wall St corporatists and the mainstream media).
And then, because of their "leadership" there's no response to something like this:

Blizzard ravages South Dakota's livestock industry - latimes.com

But then, like a lot of Republicans, these poor people have to learn the hard way that the policies they support apply to them as well:

Quote:
Yet Washington's shutdown has deprived people here of a traditional safety net: Congress hasn't passed a new farm bill to subsidize agricultural producers, and the lockout means legislators won't be voting on the topic any time soon.

These days, Reder passes a federal Farm Services Administration office whose doors are closed. ...

...

Many residents in this conservative region had supported the government shutdown as a way to make Washington more fiscally responsible. "But one appropriate role for these guys is to lend a hand after disasters like this," Christen said, "and they're not here."
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Old 10-13-2013, 02:50 PM   #700
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I would like someone to make a compelling argument as to why we should continue to centralize and expand authoritarian power over the states, individuals and the economy to either the Republicans or the Democrats.
This is not an answer to my request.
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Old 10-14-2013, 12:37 AM   #701
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This is not an answer to my request.
You won't get one.
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Old 10-14-2013, 01:04 PM   #702
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Palin and Cruz, together at last:

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Sens. Ted Cruz (R-Texas) and Mike Lee (R-Utah) and former Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin (R) attended a rally protesting the closure of the World War II Memorial, according to reports.

The lawmakers and the former governor – and 2008 GOP vice-presidential nominee – joined a crowd that removed barricades at the memorial and chanted “tear down these walls,” according to Washington, D.C., radio station WTOP.

Cruz told the crowd that President Obama is using military veterans as “pawns” to draw support for his argument in the budget impasse, which has resulted in the two-week closure of the federal government and the memorial.

Cruz and Lee spearheaded a Republican effort to tie funding for government agencies beyond Oct. 1 to defunding Obama’s signature healthcare law. Democrats refused to make changes to the healthcare law, insisting on a “clean” bill for federal funding.

The standoff has resulted in a shutdown of the federal government for the first time in 17 years.
Palin similarly placed blame for the closure of the World War II Memorial on President Obama.

“Our veterans have allowed us to be here today standing up for our First Amendment rights so that we can express their optimism,” she said. “[Obama] could be here today standing up and saying, ‘Yes, we can tear down these barricades.'”

The presence of a Confederate flag at the protest, which later moved to the White House, sparked an uproar on Twitter.


Read more: Cruz, Lee, Palin join memorial protest - The Hill's Blog Briefing Room
Follow us: @thehill on Twitter | TheHill on Facebook





just as offensive as the Confederate flag were these comments:

Quote:
The rally, billed as the "Million Vet March on the Memorials," drew far fewer than a million people and evolved into a protest that resembled familiar tea party events from 2009, with yellow "Don't Tread On Me" flags throughout the crowd and strong anti-Obama language from the podium and the audience.

One speaker went as far as saying the president was a Muslim and separately urged the crowd of hundreds to initiate a peaceful uprising.

"I call upon all of you to wage a second American nonviolent revolution, to use civil disobedience, and to demand that this president leave town, to get up, to put the Quran down, to get up off his knees, and to figuratively come out with his hands up," said Larry Klayman of Freedom Watch, a conservative political advocacy group.

Rallier tells Obama to ‘put the Quran down’ – CNN Political Ticker - CNN.com Blogs


and some analysis:

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It’s fascinating because it’s a riveting, candid insight into the forces that are behind the government shut-down and the debt-ceiling blackmail of the country and the world. They do not believe this president is a legitimate president. It is beyond their understanding that he was re-elected handily, or that he commands, even during this assault on our system of government, far more support than the Tea Party. Let’s not be mealy-mouthed. This speaker, Larry Klayman of Freedom Watch, accuses the president of treason in this speech, of deliberately pursuing policies to kill members of the armed services, because he is an Islamist, and allegedly “bows to Allah”. What he is saying is the president is a deliberate mole of foreign agents determined to destroy the American way of life. And there is no pushback from the crowd and no pushback from GOP leaders.

This is what we’re dealing with. This is not an alternative budget; it is not another way of insuring millions and cutting healthcare costs; it is not a contribution to anything but to the logic of nullification of an election. It is yet another declaration of cold civil war – a call for a nonviolent refusal to be governed by a re-elected president because he is pursuing policies with which an electorally defeated minority disagree. Simply pursuing those policies has rendered Obama a “monarch” who is arguing “his way or the highway.” But all Obama is doing is implementing a campaign promise and settled law, while governing under a continuing resolution that reflects the sequester’s level of spending, a level agreed to by the Republicans. He wants a budget agreement between the House and Senate in a conference that the Republican House has long resisted entering. He has said that he is happy to negotiate with anyone on anything as long as the blackmail of a government shut-down and of a threatened global depression are ended. And his record shows that he has compromised again and again – as his own most fervent supporters look on in dismay.

I’m not privy to the negotiations now going on in the Senate and can only glean from outsiders what the meetings with legislators have been like. But I’m not distorting the raw facts of the situation here, or trying to distract from them. And I’d love a much more expansive Grand Bargain on taxes and entitlements, that could ease our long-term debt (but it would have to be a bargain, not merely a set of Republican demands). But the rank threats of unimaginably radical consequences if a re-elected president doesn’t junk what he was re-elected to do are so foul in their lack of concern about the common good, so poisonous in their slander of a president, and so contemptuous of our orderly system of government, that it is vital the threats do not work and are not accommodated. No president of any party has any right to legitimize such an attack on the American system of government and the way it conducts business – by elections, debates, compromises and budgets, not threats of total government shut-down and the collapse of the dollar if our global credit rating is effectively destroyed overnight.

I hoped we’d be nearing some kind of deal at this point, rather than witnessing this upping of the ante from the forces that truly live on the fringes of the far right, but which, without any resistance, have now defined the Republican party. It is no accident that among those addressing this rally to blackmail the country and the world were Sarah Palin and Ted Cruz. I can see a very powerful populist electoral ticket with both of those on it – either of a third Tea Party or of an even more radicalized GOP. And perhaps that is the only way to expunge this nihilist extremism from our system. Except that it may succeed in expunging the system and the economy before we can test it where in a democracy we are accustomed to test it: in elections, not in the chaos of economic blackmail.

This Is Where We Are � The Dish
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Old 10-14-2013, 01:48 PM   #703
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The GOP's little rule change they hoped you wouldn't notice

House Rule XXII, Clause 4 (prior to the shutdown):

"When the stage of disagreement has been reached on a bill or resolution with House or Senate amendments, a motion to dispose of any amendment shall be privileged."

ie - any House member can bring up the motion to get rid of an amendment and move on. This standing rule was amended by the House (ie, Republicans) with the following resolution:

"Any motion pursuant to Clause 4 of Rule 22 relating to the house joint resolution may be offered only by the majority leader or his designee."

So, in other words (or just watch the video), the Republicans amended the rule to remove the privilege from any member of the house to call up the bill to reopen the government, and give that power only to the Republican leader or whoever he designates.

1) Democracy in action!
2) Hypothetically speaking (of course), if this is not your shutdown, you did not want this shutdown, and it's cruel for this shutdown to continue, why would you change the rules (right at the start of the shutdown) so that you and you alone have the power to decide when it's time to reopen the government?

#obamashutdown
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Old 10-14-2013, 02:28 PM   #704
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"I call upon all of you to wage a second American nonviolent revolution, to use civil disobedience, and to demand that this president leave town, to get up, to put the Quran down, to get up off his knees, and to figuratively come out with his hands up," said Larry Klayman of Freedom Watch, a conservative political advocacy group.
What a dumb, racist hick.
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Old 10-14-2013, 02:33 PM   #705
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What a dumb, racist hick.
And yet not one prominent Republican leader will have the courage to call him out.
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