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Old 10-11-2013, 01:01 PM   #676
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It's also very interesting that the American conservatives have been unified in their support of Israel and Israel's policies and negotiating tactics. And we all know that such tactics are based on the premise of "negotiations without preconditions." Which is actually the position that Obama is now adopting. And they don't like it.
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Old 10-11-2013, 01:22 PM   #677
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Originally Posted by nbcrusader View Post
Fortunately, Obama gave us the metric by which we can measure success/failure in this situation.



It starts at the top.



we dealt with this earlier in the thread:




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Originally Posted by anitram View Post
Really?

The meaningless and symbolic vote that the Democrats took, on political grounds as is par for the course for them and everyone else in Washington, which had no chance of passing and caused no worry in the markets is the same as what's happened during Obama's term?

When the AAA rating was lost? And Republican shenanigans reached unheard of levels?

You're being disingenuous.
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Here's some honesty:

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I think that it's important to understand the vantage point of a senator versus the vantage point of a president. When you're a senator, traditionally what's happened is, this is always a lousy vote. Nobody likes to be tagged as having increased the debt limit — for the United States by a trillion dollars. As president, you start realizing, you know what, we, we can't play around with this stuff. This is the full faith and credit of the United States. And so that was just an example of a new senator making what is a political vote as opposed to doing what was important for the country. And I'm the first one to acknowledge it.
Read more at snopes.com: Obama on the Debt Limit

This also comes nowhere close to shutting down the government over Obamacare.

So, again, false equivalence.
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Old 10-11-2013, 01:26 PM   #678
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The GOP approval rating is 28%, the lowest ever recorded by Gallup for a political party.

further, it's a single poll. it does look as if Obama's approval ratings have taken a small hit -- Gallup has him at 43%, the NBC/WSJ poll has his rating actually going up by 2 points to 47% -- but i'm sure the outlier will be the poll that some people have to rely on as the GOP self destructs.

i also anticipate lots of "liberal media" blame on the right wing blogs.
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Old 10-11-2013, 01:47 PM   #679
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Wait, are we still arguing over whose fault this is?

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“We’re very excited,” said Rep. Michele Bachmann (R-Minn.). “It’s exactly what we wanted, and we got it.”
Said just before the shutdown started.
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Old 10-11-2013, 01:51 PM   #680
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Let me get this right. The president comes into office in Jan 2009, explodes federal spending including adding a $750 billion “stimulus” to the budget leading to 4 straight deficits in excess of $ 1 trillion dollars and you applaud what still will be the 5th largest deficit in history – larger than any deficit under all previous presidents – as a return to fiscal sanity?
A few things happened along the way that made those numbers skyrocket. You'd have admitted that if you had any interest in being fair.

Aside from that, if you're not talking relative to GDP, you're just reciting a talking point. Not dissimilar to the Republican automatons that said all during the 2012 election that "the US Govt brought in more tax receipts last year than any point in history" in order to argue that tax rates were high enough. It's totally oblivious to the proper historical perspective for comparison. GDP.

Government Spending Chart: United States 1940-2018 - Federal State Local Data

According the actual budget estimates (I believe these are scored by the CBO), by 2014, the deficit is projected to be 4.37% of GDP. It was higher than that in 1983, 1984, 1985, 1986, 1991 and 1992. We're going in the right direction and the deficit will continue to fall (maybe even further) the more the total economy grows. You know, GDP.

And your final statement is flat out wrong anyway.
The largest deficit the U.S. has had was during WWII. I think most people would have assumed that was true without even knowing the numbers. But nonetheless the numbers are in that link but I'll just post them here.

The highest under Obama was 10% in 2009.
1943 was 28%, 1945 was 24% and 1944 was 22%. 1942 was 12%.

So actually 2009 was the 5th largest in history. But what do we care getting the facts right by putting them into proper perspective when we can just twist them to fit our argument?

Is that number still too high? Yes. But the only reason the deficit got out of hand was because of the two wars, the two tax cuts, topped by the greedy banking practices. We should take all of that into account if we care about the truth. Do you care more about hating Obama than the truth?
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Old 10-11-2013, 02:42 PM   #681
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Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
further, it's a single poll. it does look as if Obama's approval ratings have taken a small hit -- Gallup has him at 43%, the NBC/WSJ poll has his rating actually going up by 2 points to 47% -- but i'm sure the outlier will be the poll that some people have to rely on as the GOP self destructs.

i also anticipate lots of "liberal media" blame on the right wing blogs.
I know you've expressed your opinion on blame. The polls, however, show that the people are growing increasingly dissatisfied with their government.
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Old 10-11-2013, 03:11 PM   #682
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I know you've expressed your opinion on blame. The polls, however, show that the people are growing increasingly dissatisfied with their government.

I agree. The biggest drag on our economy is the dysfunction in Washington.
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Old 10-11-2013, 03:41 PM   #683
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Originally Posted by anitram View Post
Wait, are we still arguing over whose fault this is?



Said just before the shutdown started.
The actual quote:

“This is exactly what we had hoped for. A full one year delay, a full year defunding. It is a full delay of one year of the taxes, a full delay of the funding including all the advertising. It’s exactly what we asked for and we got it. So we’re very excited. That’s why I think we can all vote.”

She wasn't referring to the shutdown, but instead to the measure that would fund the government while delaying funding the ACA for a year.

Bachmann Denies Saying Shutdown ‘Exactly What We Wanted’: WaPo and Obama ‘Misquoted Me’ | Mediaite

I know very little about Bachmann, and I get that she's red meat for Democrats, but we should at least make sure we're parsing the right quotes.
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Old 10-11-2013, 03:50 PM   #684
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That delay came with hand in hand with the government shutdown.

They got what they wanted indeed.
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Old 10-11-2013, 05:53 PM   #685
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Originally Posted by U2DMfan View Post
A few things happened along the way that made those numbers skyrocket. You'd have admitted that if you had any interest in being fair.

Aside from that, if you're not talking relative to GDP, you're just reciting a talking point. Not dissimilar to the Republican automatons that said all during the 2012 election that "the US Govt brought in more tax receipts last year than any point in history" in order to argue that tax rates were high enough. It's totally oblivious to the proper historical perspective for comparison. GDP.

Government Spending Chart: United States 1940-2018 - Federal State Local Data

According the actual budget estimates (I believe these are scored by the CBO), by 2014, the deficit is projected to be 4.37% of GDP. It was higher than that in 1983, 1984, 1985, 1986, 1991 and 1992. We're going in the right direction and the deficit will continue to fall (maybe even further) the more the total economy grows. You know, GDP.

And your final statement is flat out wrong anyway.
The largest deficit the U.S. has had was during WWII. I think most people would have assumed that was true without even knowing the numbers. But nonetheless the numbers are in that link but I'll just post them here.

The highest under Obama was 10% in 2009.
1943 was 28%, 1945 was 24% and 1944 was 22%. 1942 was 12%.

So actually 2009 was the 5th largest in history. But what do we care getting the facts right by putting them into proper perspective when we can just twist them to fit our argument?

Is that number still too high? Yes. But the only reason the deficit got out of hand was because of the two wars, the two tax cuts, topped by the greedy banking practices. We should take all of that into account if we care about the truth. Do you care more about hating Obama than the truth?
No mention of the real debt drivers, entitlements?

I was talking total dollars so yes there are arguments one could make regarding inflation adjusted dollars and GDP%. But what would that chart look like if, instead of operating deficits, the government had to include all liabilities as a business would? Throw in unfunded entitlement and pension liabilities and tell me things are getting rosier.

And one look at CBO and OMB charts show the deficit shooting up again.
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Old 10-11-2013, 06:33 PM   #686
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No mention of the real debt drivers, entitlements?

I was talking total dollars so yes there are arguments one could make regarding inflation adjusted dollars and GDP%. But what would that chart look like if, instead of operating deficits, the government had to include all liabilities as a business would? Throw in unfunded entitlement and pension liabilities and tell me things are getting rosier.

And one look at CBO and OMB charts show the deficit shooting up again.
Look, I'm far from an Obama apologist and we definitely should have another serious conversation about the deficit and debt in FYM. However much we all disagree about X, Y or Z, I am just for an intellectually honest approach.

There's a reason 2009 looks so bad and the first few years thereafter. And not all of it had to do with flatly egregious spending. And talking about total dollars is meaningless as a historical measure. And the only reason you did it is to say "see, look how bad it is!" And you know as well as I do, that it's disingenuous to do so. That's all. So yeah, let's talk about entitlements as a debt driver. Let's talk about ALL of it. Part of that conversation is admitting that the Great Recession skewed the numbers that you keep citing to make Obama look like 'the worst ever'. And that's just partisan garbage to me.
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Old 10-11-2013, 06:35 PM   #687
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I would like someone to make a compelling argument as to why I should respect the opinions of Republicans.
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Old 10-11-2013, 06:40 PM   #688
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Indy, if we want to balance the budget, for the government that Republicans and Democrats both want (whether they say they do or not) we need more revenue, through growth.

How do we get more growth? I suppose that's where the serious argument resides.

Cutting "entitlements" is a code word for talking about Medicaid, welfare and "freebies". Because Social Security and Medicare are going to be off limits, that's just the practical reality. So it's not part of the serious conversation.

The other part of this, Indy, is the reality about austerity. If you need more growth like a crackhead needs crack and cutting the hell out of everything shrinks the total economy, which has been clearly demonstrated in Europe and elsewhere, then what do you do?

We can't cut our way out of it. So what's the alternative?
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Old 10-11-2013, 11:51 PM   #689
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Because Social Security and Medicare are going to be off limits, that's just the practical reality.
I think that this reality needs to change, but maybe that's because I'm 20 years old.
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Old 10-12-2013, 11:27 AM   #690
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I would like someone to make a compelling argument as to why I should respect the opinions of Republicans.
Yep.
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