United States of Entropy - Page 32 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 10-03-2013, 11:12 PM   #466
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
U2DMfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: It's Inside A Black Hole
Posts: 6,637
Local Time: 12:39 AM
I'll say this much. Both parties are sellout whores that have allowed the whole country, to one degree or another, to be sold up the river to Big Business. That much is true. But that does not mean they behave the same way within the realm of governance or even electoral politics. The Republicans perpetuate the most egregious thing in all of American politics. They continually convince people, often knowingly and cynically, to vote against their own best interests. And they also play far harder in terms of raw politics which is what we're seeing now. Because if they didn't do either one of these things, they'd be almost useless and ineffectual and certainly the permanent minority party.
__________________

__________________
U2DMfan is offline  
Old 10-03-2013, 11:14 PM   #467
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
AEON's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: California
Posts: 4,052
Local Time: 11:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by anitram View Post
Do we have a group of Democrats holding the nation hostage because we don't have single payer?
Sure, Harry Reid and the Democrats could give funding to NIH, NASA, and National Parks right now. But they won't. Why? Because they're playing the same game (and they may actually be winning based on the polls).
__________________

__________________
AEON is offline  
Old 10-03-2013, 11:20 PM   #468
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
AEON's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: California
Posts: 4,052
Local Time: 11:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by U2DMfan View Post
I'll say this much. Both parties are sellout whores that have allowed the whole country, to one degree or another, to be sold up the river to Big Business. That much is true.
Very much agreed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by U2DMfan View Post
But that does not mean they behave the same way within the realm of governance or even electoral politics. The Republicans perpetuate the most egregious thing in all of American politics. They continually convince people, often knowingly and cynically, to vote against their own best interests. And they also play far harder in terms of raw politics which is what we're seeing now. Because if they didn't do either one of these things, they'd be almost useless and ineffectual and certainly the permanent minority party.
Just a decade ago they were talking about the Democrats being a permanent minority party. This is just another cycle.
__________________
AEON is offline  
Old 10-03-2013, 11:21 PM   #469
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
U2DMfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: It's Inside A Black Hole
Posts: 6,637
Local Time: 12:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AEON View Post
They did - in 2010 - as a response to Obamacare. These are the folks you are dealing with now - elected to do EXACTLY this.
Actually you might be right. I'm sure they promised their constituents that they would do whatever it would take.

But at this point it's not only the law, it has been reinforced by the USSC. Obama has no responsibility to negotiate with the House on this matter. At all.

So if that is the case, and it clearly is, then what are they doing besides performing a political stunt?
__________________
U2DMfan is offline  
Old 10-03-2013, 11:23 PM   #470
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
AEON's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: California
Posts: 4,052
Local Time: 11:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
Should we talk about how a democracy works?
Many years back, before Obama got elected, when Gay Marriage was being defeated, I don't recall you being so convinced about the benefits of democracy.
__________________
AEON is offline  
Old 10-03-2013, 11:27 PM   #471
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
AEON's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: California
Posts: 4,052
Local Time: 11:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by U2DMfan View Post

So if that is the case, and it clearly is, then what are they doing besides performing a political stunt?
I'm guessing they are hoping for some sort of compromise - perhaps another year delay on ACA. But I'm just guessing.

It seems to me the Republicans are losing the PR battle here - but the very people elected to do this are probably soaring high in their local polls. It's all about being re-elected - the beauty of democracy - right Irvine
__________________
AEON is offline  
Old 10-03-2013, 11:30 PM   #472
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,473
Local Time: 01:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AEON View Post
Many years back, before Obama got elected, when Gay Marriage was being defeated, I don't recall you being so convinced about the benefits of democracy.

Talk about your apples to oranges ... Wow.

But since you're playing the "everything is the same" game, I suppose I'll say that te one thing SSM and the ACA have in common is that both are constitutional.
__________________
Irvine511 is offline  
Old 10-03-2013, 11:30 PM   #473
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
AEON's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: California
Posts: 4,052
Local Time: 11:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by U2DMfan View Post
it has been reinforced by the USSC.
That only proves it was not un-Constitutional. A majority of the public still opposes the bill - especially the districts that elected the Tea Party Caucus.
__________________
AEON is offline  
Old 10-03-2013, 11:32 PM   #474
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,473
Local Time: 01:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AEON View Post
I'm guessing they are hoping for some sort of compromise - perhaps another year delay on ACA. But I'm just guessing. It seems to me the Republicans are losing the PR battle here - but the very people elected to do this are probably soaring high in their local polls. It's all about being re-elected - the beauty of democracy - right Irvine
Why? Why should there be ANY compromise on the ACA?

Is there some sort of Republican alternative to the ACA upon which compromises could be made?

Given that the ACA is itself a massive compromise, and a smashing success in Massachusetts, and a major achievement of Mitt Romney, and the central issue of the 2012 campaign, and has passed both houses and the SCOTUS, tell me, upon what do we compromise?
__________________
Irvine511 is offline  
Old 10-03-2013, 11:33 PM   #475
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,473
Local Time: 01:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AEON View Post
That only proves it was not un-Constitutional. A majority of the public still opposes the bill - especially the districts that elected the Tea Party Caucus.
What are you even talking about? We do to get to blow up the government because laws pass that a minority of people don't like. Governing is not "my way or I'll wreck the country."

Read this:

http://m.newyorker.com/online/blogs/...geography.html
__________________
Irvine511 is offline  
Old 10-03-2013, 11:45 PM   #476
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
U2DMfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: It's Inside A Black Hole
Posts: 6,637
Local Time: 12:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AEON View Post
Just a decade ago they were talking about the Democrats being a permanent minority party. This is just another cycle.
Whoever said that didn't know a thing about projected demographics decades down the road. But there is a lot of natural appeal to the Democrats regardless of whatever cynical tactics might exist. Republicans have very little natural appeal and desperately require their cynical tactics.

Democrats have won the popular vote in 5 of the last 6 elections and the one time they didn't, Kerry got more votes than any losing candidate has ever received. Whatever else they have going against them, they have some things going for them as well.

And without the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and hijacking Jesus issues, the Republicans might never have won a national election again after Nixon.

It's hard to sell average folk on being THE party of the ultra rich unless you can create the alternate universe that promises them mythical tax cuts that pay for themselves, among many other things. This aligns the mid.lower class and the rich. Great strategy! Terrible after effects.

I really detest both parties but there is one way worse than the other on some of these core things. And I'm not just talking about a given issue here or there, but just in general. Dishonesty. Or if it's not dishonest but is actually sincere, then it's incredible ignorance.

It's something that has really bothered me lately on a personal level, dealing with members of my own family that believe such ignorant things about Obama. And I am no big fan of Obama, but I am HUGE fan of the truth. And these are people that voted FOR him in 2008. It's just...maddening. More and more I blame the sheer cynicism within the GOP that metes out this garbage. The flat out refusal to admit certain truths. I can fill up a whole page on what I don't like about the Democrats but they don't quite reach this level.

Romney lost the 2012 election because of this stuff. Because he couldn't make 2+2 = 5. As Clinton said at the DNC, it was a math problem. Republicans have been selling that bad math for years. And people had been buying it for all sorts of reasons other than the actual math itself.

I don't see this as a cycle until I see the Republicans evolve. I see them headed in the opposite direction actually, devolving. We see it right now, the fringe are handing the moderates their hat. And the moderate candidates for President twice in a row were polluted by having to appeal to that fringe.

As much as I rail against both parties, I sense the frustration with the equivalence that's been made here (perhaps my own words perceived that way?) and just wanted to make my opinion known on that. I'm pretty moderate, but yeah, Left of center. And I almost hoped I could have supported someone else in 2012, I just couldn't. I liked Huntsman but a guy like that had no prayer in this Republican party. When that changes, maybe it starts to look more like a cycle to me as someone that supported the principled moderate McCain in 2000 and hasn't supported a Republican for President since.
__________________
U2DMfan is offline  
Old 10-03-2013, 11:51 PM   #477
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
U2DMfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: It's Inside A Black Hole
Posts: 6,637
Local Time: 12:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AEON View Post
It seems to me the Republicans are losing the PR battle here
It's no great wonder. What they are doing, whether they feel emboldened to do it or not, is pretty much dickish BS. And it's hurting people.
__________________
U2DMfan is offline  
Old 10-04-2013, 12:37 AM   #478
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
AEON's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: California
Posts: 4,052
Local Time: 11:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post

Given that the ACA is itself a massive compromise,
A bill passed with zero votes from the opposition party can hardly be called a compromise.
__________________
AEON is offline  
Old 10-04-2013, 12:38 AM   #479
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
AEON's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: California
Posts: 4,052
Local Time: 11:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
What are you even talking about? We do to get to blow up the government because laws pass that a minority of people don't like. Governing is not "my way or I'll wreck the country."
because laws pass that a minority majority of the people don't like
__________________
AEON is offline  
Old 10-04-2013, 12:46 AM   #480
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
AEON's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: California
Posts: 4,052
Local Time: 11:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by U2DMfan View Post
It's hard to sell average folk on being THE party of the ultra rich
That may have been true once, but it certainly isn't true anymore. Since the Democrats took charge in 2008, the "ultra rich" have only gotten "ultra richer." How can this happen if the "party of the people" was actually looking out for the middle class? That's why I'm calling BS.
__________________

__________________
AEON is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:39 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com