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Old 10-03-2013, 09:04 PM   #451
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You're constructing another us vs them when you pitch 310m people against 536 "clowns" in DC.
Yes I am. 310 million people against the 536 "clowns" AND the people that paid for them.
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Old 10-03-2013, 09:07 PM   #452
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No. There are real facts out there. Pretending the parties are the same is not good thinking.
Each side claims to have the "facts" on their side. Each pundit I see on any channel is always spouting off some number about something and is simply shocked the other side doesn't see the same thing.

Seriously, if you step outside your party blinders for one week - you will see what I mean.
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Old 10-03-2013, 09:11 PM   #453
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Though he repeatedly joined with all of his Republican colleagues to force the government shutdown, in a candid moment last month Rep. Greg Walden (R-OR) complained that the Tea Party’s influence forced them to do it.

Walden, who chairs the National Republican Congressional Committee (the House GOP’s campaign arm), reportedly told a group of top Republican donors that the Tea Party’s organizational strength meant that Republicans had to shutdown the government and obstruct a debt-ceiling increase.

“Listen,” Walden told them, “We have to do this because of the Tea Party. If we don’t, these guys are going to get primaried and they are going to lose their primary.” Noting that he often hears complaints from the pro-business wing of the party, he noted none of them get involved at the local level. “The Tea Party gets involved at the local level,” he added.
Any more questions on this?
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Old 10-03-2013, 09:14 PM   #454
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Each side claims to have the "facts" on their side. Each pundit I see on any channel is always spouting off some number about something and is simply shocked the other side doesn't see the same thing. Seriously, if you step outside your party blinders for one week - you will see what I mean.

That's what they want you to think.

It's like people who deny climate change. You are falling for it.
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Old 10-03-2013, 09:24 PM   #455
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It's like people who deny climate change.
Anitram, does this qualify as an FYM version of False Equivalency?

There is no economic/political consensus on the impact of ACA (which is at the heart of this issue). However, there is 95% scientific consensus on climate change.

Apples to oranges...
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Old 10-03-2013, 09:33 PM   #456
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Any more questions on this?
About the Tea Party's abortion stance at the local level? This does seem to indicate local level involvement, but it doesn't mention abortion. It still seems they are more concerned with budget deficit and limited government issues.
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Old 10-03-2013, 09:37 PM   #457
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No.

My point is that it is very clearly being articulated by Republicans themselves that this is nothing but obstructionism because they have been taken hostage by the Tea Party. You want to blame both parties? Really? While one is telling you that the reason for the government shut down and obstruction is to appease a small faction of ideologues?

Pray tell what there do you see constituting reasonable legislative intent? And where in the Democratic party do you see behaviour to justify your "they're both acting the same" view? Do we have a group of Democrats holding the nation hostage because we don't have single payer? Nevermind any other topic, let's concentrate on the shutdown and the related defunding of Obamacare.

The only way to keep claiming they are exactly the same is to employ serious cognitive dissonance.
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Old 10-03-2013, 09:44 PM   #458
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One side says allow, the other says remove. What's the difference?
Are you seriously asking this?

Party A won the election on a platform of X.

Party B ran explicitly and loudly against X and lost the presidency, lost the Senate and actually lost the House popular vote but ended up with control because their governors gerrymandered the seats.

Supreme Court upholds constitutionality of X. Teabagger members of Party B actually come out stating that just because the SCOTUS says something is constitutional doesn't make it so (!!).

Party B attempts to repeal X 43 (yes I checked it), FORTY-THREE times. Fails.

During a routine budgetary measure, Teabagger members of Party B decide to have one more go at it so they attempt to defund X. Many moderate members of Party B then come out stating that the reason for this is because Teabaggers are dictating the course of action with tacit threats that any moderate Republican who doesn't agree with them will get primaried.

And you think this is the same.

GO WIN AN ELECTION, REPUBLICANS.

For which American people are they fighting? Not the ones that voted.
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Old 10-03-2013, 10:20 PM   #459
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Originally Posted by AEON View Post
Each side claims to have the "facts" on their side. Each pundit I see on any channel is always spouting off some number about something and is simply shocked the other side doesn't see the same thing.

Seriously, if you step outside your party blinders for one week - you will see what I mean.
Good Lord, man. It's got nothing to do with party blinders. Irvine and Anitram are putting forth arguments that you're ignoring almost entirely.
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Old 10-03-2013, 11:00 PM   #460
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As you know - I'm actually a supporter of free, universal health care and not this ACA sham...

Anyway - something to think about:

1) It could be reasonably argued that this bill was passed without ANY bi-partisan support, thus ignoring the opinion of nearly half of the nation's population: The House passed the Senate bill with a 219–212 vote on March 21, 2010, with 34 Democrats and all 178 Republicans voting against it. That's not exactly a mandate.

2) 47.2% of the population did vote against Obama - does that mean that almost half of the nation no longer has a say?

3) It could also be argued that the Tea Party success in 2010 was the nation's response of ACA being passed. That fact should be taken into consideration.

4) And of course - the general public may have supported Obama in 2012 - but ACA has not enjoyed majority support.

So, who is "listening" to the will of the people? The president that got elected but passed unpopular legislation with zero bi-partisan support (which is astounding considering the cost/impact of the bill), or the Republicans that are literally responding to the majority of the people that oppose Obamacare?
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Old 10-03-2013, 11:02 PM   #461
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GO WIN AN ELECTION, REPUBLICANS.
They did - in 2010 - as a response to Obamacare. These are the folks you are dealing with now - elected to do EXACTLY this.
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Old 10-03-2013, 11:05 PM   #462
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Should we talk about how a democracy works?
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Old 10-03-2013, 11:07 PM   #463
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They did - in 2010 - as a response to Obamacare. These are the folks you are dealing with now - elected to do EXACTLY this.

And Obama clobbered his opponent for the 2nd time in a row in 2012. And the Dems control the Senate. And they have more votes in the House.

So you have no leg to stand on here.

Representatives are elected to govern, not to protest.
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Old 10-03-2013, 11:08 PM   #464
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For which American people are they fighting?
About 57% of the US Population...
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Old 10-03-2013, 11:08 PM   #465
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So you have no leg to stand on here.

.
Except that 57% of the nation oppose the bill.
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