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Old 10-03-2013, 04:48 PM   #436
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Well, the opposite argument could be made that this is the least compromising president.
Go ahead and flesh out that argument, then. There is simply no data to support that he is the least compromising president. Oh, there's plenty of media soundbites of him "ramming things down our throats, but to suggest that Obama had been unwilling to compromise is simply not borne out by the facts. If anything, because of the nearly totally obstructionist Congress, Obama has had to compromise far more than most.
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Old 10-03-2013, 05:02 PM   #437
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Also, Aeon, regarding past shutdowns - nearly all of them centered around disagreements over the budget. Democrats have already accepted the Republicans offered budget of $988 billion. That is significantly lower than any Democratic proposed number, and even the Paul Ryan budget of a few years ago. So... what's the issue?

That is why this shutdown and the Republican's conduct is unprecedented. The historical reason for shutdowns is a non-issue. Given that, the Tea Party Republicans are not offering any negotiation - they're using the threat of real, significant and lasting damage to the economy and welfare of millions of Americans to enact their own agenda, an agenda that lost them the last election. That's not negotiation, that's extortion.

And the ugliest thing about it is that, despite their patriotic rhetoric, it shows how little they actually care about the rule of law and respecting Constitutional process. If you lose an election, you don't get to ram your agenda through at the sake of everything else. You compromise, you make your stands where you have to, but you absolutely do not take the economy and livelihood of the American people hostage when you don't like the results of the democratic process.
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Old 10-03-2013, 05:10 PM   #438
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From the mouth of Paul Ryan:

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"The reason this debt limit fight is different is, we don't have an election around the corner where we feel we are going to win and fix it ourselves. We are stuck with this government another three years."
There you go. They are being obstructionist because they lost an election. As was so succinctly put in New York Magazine, "This is a remarkable confession. Republicans need to compel Obama to accept their agenda, not in spite of the fact that the voters rejected it at the polls but precisely for that reason."
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Old 10-03-2013, 05:19 PM   #439
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How is this the Tea Party. Abortion is not a part of their platform. Are you simply attributing "all things conservative" to the Tea Party?
Please do some research into who has been pushing these bills and amendments and it will become clear to you. It matters what they do, not what they say in some vague platform.
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Old 10-03-2013, 06:13 PM   #440
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Who cares that the Congress has the "right" to do this? Why does that put them above criticism?
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Old 10-03-2013, 06:40 PM   #441
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Go ahead and flesh out that argument, then.
Nothing is getting passed.

In the past, other presidents (recently Bill Clinton) were capable of dealing with the opposite party when they did not own both the House and Senate.
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Old 10-03-2013, 06:42 PM   #442
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Also, Aeon, regarding past shutdowns - nearly all of them centered around disagreements over the budget.
At the heart of it - isn't the budget what this shutdown is about as well? That the US can't afford ACA? Or so they say.
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Old 10-03-2013, 06:43 PM   #443
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Given that, the Tea Party Republicans are not offering any negotiation - they're using the threat of real, significant and lasting damage to the economy and welfare of millions of Americans to enact their own agenda, an agenda that lost them the last election. That's not negotiation, that's extortion.
Both sides are claiming the same thing. Which side should I believe?
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Old 10-03-2013, 06:53 PM   #444
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despite their patriotic rhetoric, it shows how little they actually care about the rule of law and respecting Constitutional process. If you lose an election, you don't get to ram your agenda through at the sake of everything else. You compromise, you make your stands where you have to, but you absolutely do not take the economy and livelihood of the American people hostage when you don't like the results of the democratic process.
Maybe we can calm down the histrionics for a second. Congressmembers on both sides of the aisle have been decrying the ACA this week as being anything but. Given the collapse of other publicly-funded institutions (public education, the Post Office), I think it would do everyone well to sit down and figure out how to actually fund this thing before we start writing checks. It's a law -- fine. But there are plenty of initiatives that the government can't fund at this point (CNN did a particularly chilling graphic on this Monday night), and a poorly-constructed billion-dollar institution -- however well-intentioned -- needs to be thought-through first. I'm also not sure how Congress is supposed to fund the ACA when it doesn't have the money to do so. I agree that we don't elect Congresspeople to be ideologues; we do however elect them to be responsible with our taxes. I'm not sure that adding a billion dollars to the federal deficit -- however well-intentioned the initiative -- is responsible.

I'm not opposed to free health care, if there's a way to make it work financially. But the costs of the ACA are proving to be far higher than expected (you can't add millions of new patients without the doctors to cover them), and those costs will be absorbed both by taxpayers (married friends of mine are finding their costs suddenly quadrupling under the "bronze" plan), and by the government. The fact is, people don't have health insurance because they can't afford it. Unfortunately, neither can the government. The problem as I see it is not really about the justice or injustice of universal health care. The problem fundamentally is about the unjust and skyrocketing costs of health care, and until that broken wheel is fixed, the government will only be contributing at an astronomical level to the problem.
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Old 10-03-2013, 07:22 PM   #445
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Maybe we can calm down the histrionics for a second. Congressmembers on both sides of the aisle have been decrying the ACA this week as being anything but. Given the collapse of other publicly-funded institutions (public education, the Post Office), I think it would do everyone well to sit down and figure out how to actually fund this thing before we start writing checks. It's a law -- fine. But there are plenty of initiatives that the government can't fund at this point (CNN did a particularly chilling graphic on this Monday night), and a poorly-constructed billion-dollar institution -- however well-intentioned -- needs to be thought-through first. I'm also not sure how Congress is supposed to fund the ACA when it doesn't have the money to do so. I agree that we don't elect Congresspeople to be ideologues; we do however elect them to be responsible with our taxes. I'm not sure that adding a billion dollars to the federal deficit -- however well-intentioned the initiative -- is responsible. I'm not opposed to free health care, if there's a way to make it work financially. But the costs of the ACA are proving to be far higher than expected (you can't add millions of new patients without the doctors to cover them), and those costs will be absorbed both by taxpayers (married friends of mine are finding their costs suddenly quadrupling under the "bronze" plan), and by the government. The fact is, people don't have health insurance because they can't afford it. Unfortunately, neither can the government. The problem as I see it is not really about the justice or injustice of universal health care. The problem fundamentally is about the unjust and skyrocketing costs of health care, and until that broken wheel is fixed, the government will only be contributing at an astronomical level to the problem.


Setting aside the factual-ness of the post, none of it is a justification for shutting down the government.

It's simply preposterous to pretend that both parties behave in the same way. They simply do not.
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Old 10-03-2013, 07:57 PM   #446
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Nothing is getting passed.
The Republicans have openly stated, numerous times, that one of their major intentions is to prevent Obama from enacting his agenda. Obama got ZERO votes on an economic recovery bill during the worst fiscal crisis the country had seen in 80 years. Not one Republican voted yes on a much needed recovery bill. If Republicans are more interested in blocking an administration than from serving their country, that's not a reflection on the president.

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In the past, other presidents (recently Bill Clinton) were capable of dealing with the opposite party when they did not own both the House and Senate.
No previous president has dealt with a congress this focused on obstruction. For god's sake, the ACA is straight of the conservative playbook of the Heritage Foundation, and was a rousing success for a prominent Republican governor.
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Old 10-03-2013, 08:03 PM   #447
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A Republican governor who was the party's presidential nominee less than a year ago.

Honestly. What world do these people live in?
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Old 10-03-2013, 08:50 PM   #448
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The Republicans have openly stated, numerous times, that one of their major intentions is to prevent Obama from enacting his agenda.
How is this different from the Republicans of the mid-1990's? Yet, Clinton found a way to work with the Republicans and therefore improve the economy.

Both sides claim that the other is actually shutting down the government. If the other side would only allow/remove "X" - then we could get the budget passed. One side says allow, the other says remove. What's the difference?
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Old 10-03-2013, 08:54 PM   #449
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Honestly. What world do these people live in?
The same as you. And they think you're just as nuts for not "seeing the light."

The problem is with the whole "us" vs "them" mentality to begin with. We act as if those in another political party are actually enemies, and not fellow citizens.

The real "them" are all of the clowns in power, and the real "us" is everyone struggling to make it in a game stacked against them.
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Old 10-03-2013, 09:00 PM   #450
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The same as you. And they think you're just as nuts for not "seeing the light." The problem is with the whole "us" vs "them" mentality to begin with. We act as if those in another political party are actually enemies, and not fellow citizens. The real "them" are all of the clowns in power, and the real "us" is everyone struggling to make it in a game stacked against them.

No. There are real facts out there. Pretending the parties are the same is not good thinking.

You're constructing another us vs them when you pitch 310m people against 536 "clowns" in DC.
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