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Old 02-09-2013, 07:27 PM   #31
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Ronus Paulus? Jebius Bushius? Newtius Gringus or even Sarus Palinian?
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Old 02-09-2013, 08:03 PM   #32
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Biggus Dickus.

He has a wife, you know.
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Old 02-09-2013, 08:10 PM   #33
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You (as the OP) sound like one of the Roman writers from the final century of the Western Empire, or most of the folk who thought the world was going to end in 1000AD which was surprisingly a lot of people. Society is far from getting worse and could still get better in how we treat people. Last days of empire and all that yada yada.

The world did go into decline after the Western Empire finally withered away though. The middle ages were a cesspool.

(Not agreeing with the premise of the thread, however)
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Old 02-09-2013, 08:14 PM   #34
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Not really interested in the sanctimonious bullshit debate on the so-called state of our nations morals, so I present you with a song....



Bad Religion - Entropy

random blobs of power expressed as that which we all disregard,
ordered states of nature on a scale that no one thinks about,
don't speak to me of anarchy of peace or calm revolt,
man, we're in a play of slow decay orchestrated by boltzmann,

it's entropy, it's not a human issue,
entropy, it's a matter of course,
entropy, energy at all levels,
entropy, from it you can not divorce
and your pathetic moans of suffrage tend to lose all significance,

extinction, degradation;
the natural outcomes of our ordered lives,
power, motivation; temporary fixtures for which we strive,
something in our synapses assures us we're ok
but in our disquilibrium we simply can not stay,
it's entropy......

a stolid proposition from a man unkempt as I,
my affectatious I can not rectify,
but we are out of equilibrium unnaturally,
a pang of consciousness of death
and then you will agree
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Old 02-09-2013, 08:21 PM   #35
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The world did go into decline after the Western Empire finally withered away though. The middle ages were a cesspool.

(Not agreeing with the premise of the thread, however)
The world didn't go into decline, Western Europe yes, but depends what you mean by decline, life went on quite similarly for a lot of folk. Eastern half of the Empire did alright for another couple hundred of years. The Arabs did quite well and kept up a lot of the supposedly forgotten knowledge of the Romans, they held up the academic side of things quite well and for the most part were also quite multicultural. China I do believe was doing grand at the time as well, but i'm less familiar with their history.
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Old 02-09-2013, 08:26 PM   #36
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The world didn't go into decline, Western Europe yes, but depends what you mean by decline, life went on quite similarly for a lot of folk. Eastern half of the Empire did alright for another couple hundred of years. The Arabs did quite well and kept up a lot of the supposedly forgotten knowledge of the Romans, they held up the academic side of things quite well and for the most part were also quite multicultural. China I do believe was doing grand at the time as well, but i'm less familiar with their history.
Yes, sorry, I was referring to Western European civilization. They certainly took a lot of steps backward in respect to sanitation, city planning, etc
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Old 02-09-2013, 08:30 PM   #37
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The Arabs ..kept up a lot of the supposedly forgotten knowledge of the Romans, they held up the academic side of things quite well
I wish this point would be brought up more often to certain groups of people
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Old 02-09-2013, 09:55 PM   #38
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People are selective in their history and they hark back to an era of prosperity that didn't really exist for all.

I do find it funny that the 'personal responsibility brigade' are oh so willing to blame everything that's wrong with the world on somebody else, 'big government', 'the undeserving poor'.
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Old 02-10-2013, 03:23 PM   #39
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Thanks for your response. I agree with many things you say but I'll give you my perspective on some of your answers.

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Some of what you've mentioned is happening in other countries too, not just in America, or they are nothing new.

Faith in God is mocked in Europe, Canada, Australia and other industrialized places.
True, I admitted as much in my opening. But wouldn't it be prudent to learn from the errors of Europe's massive Welfare State, debt and experiments in multiculturalism rather than repeating their mistakes decades later?
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I'm not quite sure what you mean by individual initiative, so please explain.
It's the first step in self-reliance. It's doing what needs to be done without being told. It's how businesses are created. It's the opposite of waiting for someone to give you what you need.

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There are plenty with a strong work ethic in this country. I suspect you are looking at a small group of people being lazy and thinking this is the future of the entire country.
There is, but how do you think that is affected when you have to earn at least $X in salary to come out ahead of someone on Welfare payments, food stamps, Medicaid, Sec 8, free day-care, heating assistance, free cell phone service, etc, etc. It takes a lot of individual initiative to work and be self-reliant instead.

What happens as the stigma to living on the dole lessens and it's seen as a personal choice not to be morally condemned?
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Personal responsibility has always been a human problem. In the past, people blamed the devil or someone else for their problems. Nowadays, it's our parents' fault or a co-worker or whoever. It isn't good to not be responsible for yourself, but it is not easy. I think it takes a lot of self-respect and strength to have full personal responsibility. Also, this is a problem everywhere in the world; there's not one society that is free from dishonesty.
I agree, personal responsibility is a major reason the Founders thought our Constitution required a people of faith. A secular government but a religious populace. A self-controlled citizen doesn't require a controlling government (tyranny). My question is, if many citizens learn from the Bible the value of personal responsibility why isn't that seen as a good thing? One doesn't have to believe the theology to recognize the wisdom in the Bible. That's the question I'd like to see asked of religion bashers. But I never see it.

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True, not too many people are frugal with their money, but that's a long standing problem throughout the world.
The generation that went through the Depression was and they lived their entire lives that way because they knew it could happen again. And it will. Do you think the materialistic messages in pop culture contribute?

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There are plenty of progressives who are proud of America. Just because people have different political beliefs than you does not mean they all hate this country and want to destroy it.
Destroy no... but "fundamental transformation" can't happen soon enough for the far-Left.

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I think families have always been dysfunctional. Husbands and wives got married too young and since divorce was taboo, stayed together for miserable decades. Doesn't sound like a stable home to me. I do agree that families need to be strengthened, but that comes down to personal responsibility and the need to look ahead into the future and accept the changes - gender equality, same-sex parenting, etc. - as human evolution, rather than looking back at the good old days which weren't really so great.
We have 40 years of evidence of the Great Society's influence in the breakup of the family through perverse welfare incentives. Marriage rates are down, the rate of children born out of wedlock goes higher every decade and yet almost the entire West is now at a negative reproduction rate.

I can think of no better term than entropy for a civilization that can't even be bothered to genetically replace itself.
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Culture may be rotting, but that has more to do with Hollywood and record companies trying to shock audiences for the sake of money. I think the average movie watcher of music listener just accepts what entertainment says and doesn't question the semantics.
Maybe Sandyhook will finally open some eyes.

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Academics is in decline in many ways. On one hand, you have students who can barely read their grade level. On the other, you have students being taught creationism as a legitimate fact, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary, and the fact that the U.S. is the only industrialized country debating evolution.
I don't happen to believe in Creationism but you can still be an engineer, orthodontist, biologist or lawyer after being taught Creationism, if you don't read however you can't.
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Narcissism is a worldwide problem, not just an American issue.
And it would be narcissistic to think so.

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INDY, I think you see our country as the super great, unique, utopia-like place, when it really never was. Yes, it is great that a simple country developed into a huge economic and political superpower, but we've always had our flaws. But you seem to think America and its people are unlike other countries and other people in the world. We're all human.
No, my utopia is in the next life. I just want a country where the individual matters more than the government. His sovereignty takes precedence, he is free to find his own potential, purse his own interests, follow his own faith and keep his own property while respecting the unalienable rights of others to do the same.
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Old 02-10-2013, 03:37 PM   #40
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So what happened to the great empires and powers of the past? Were they conquered by invaders from beyond their borders or did they decay into moral decadence, bankruptcy, ethnic polarization and economic stagnation and fall at the hand of civil war and revolution from within?
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Old 02-10-2013, 04:15 PM   #41
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Thanks for your response. I agree with many things you say but I'll give you my perspective on some of your answers.


True, I admitted as much in my opening. But wouldn't it be prudent to learn from the errors of Europe's massive Welfare State, debt and experiments in multiculturalism rather than repeating their mistakes decades later?
When I brought up Canada, Australia and Europe, I was referring to your complaint that faith in God is being mocked and belittled in this country. My point was it is happening in many places in the world, so it is not just an American problem.

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It's the first step in self-reliance. It's doing what needs to be done without being told. It's how businesses are created. It's the opposite of waiting for someone to give you what you need.
Self-reliance comes in many different forms, and while there are some who need more of it, I do not believe there is an epidemic of lazy people in this country.

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There is, but how do you think that is affected when you have to earn at least $X in salary to come out ahead of someone on Welfare payments, food stamps, Medicaid, Sec 8, free day-care, heating assistance, free cell phone service, etc, etc. It takes a lot of individual initiative to work and be self-reliant instead.

What happens as the stigma to living on the dole lessens and it's seen as a personal choice not to be morally condemned?
See my above answer.

Quote:
I agree, personal responsibility is a major reason the Founders thought our Constitution required a people of faith. A secular government but a religious populace. A self-controlled citizen doesn't require a controlling government (tyranny). My question is, if many citizens learn from the Bible the value of personal responsibility why isn't that seen as a good thing? One doesn't have to believe the theology to recognize the wisdom in the Bible. That's the question I'd like to see asked of religion bashers. But I never see it.
You don't need to believe in God to have personal responsibility. Also, there are plenty of people who claim to be God-fearing who lack personal responsibility. I think you bringing up the Bible repeatedly here tells me you want everyone to read the Bible whether they want to or not. Besides, there are plenty of religions and philosophies that teach personal responsibility - even New Age philosophies and self-help books these days teach the same thing.

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The generation that went through the Depression was and they lived their entire lives that way because they knew it could happen again. And it will. Do you think the materialistic messages in pop culture contribute?
The materialistic messages in pop culture is driven by publicity and endorsements. If a reality star or singer or whatever is promoting a brand, they are paid to do so by a company, who will in turn support them however way. This has more to do with the fact that the world tends to idolize celebrities far too much, and we should all ask ourselves why do we idolize such people.


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Destroy no... but "fundamental transformation" can't happen soon enough for the far-Left.
I see such beliefs as more conspiracy than anything. This is something Glen Beck or Rush Limbaugh will say.

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We have 40 years of evidence of the Great Society's influence in the breakup of the family through perverse welfare incentives. Marriage rates are down, the rate of children born out of wedlock goes higher every decade and yet almost the entire West is now at a negative reproduction rate.


I can think of no better term than entropy for a civilization that can't even be bothered to genetically replace itself.


Wrong. The welfare system is not alone in why marriage rates are down and single moms are on the rise. Many people I know who have no interest in getting married is because they've seen how nasty divorce can be and they don't want the same for themselves. Also, some people are choosing not to get married these days because the lousy economy has killed off their future plans. As for the West no reproducing enough, I think that has more to do with the fact that we in the West are educated enough to know that only two, maybe three children is enough - not six or even ten.

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Maybe Sandyhook will finally open some eyes.
Sorry, but Sandy Hook happened because of a failed mental health system in this country. It is pretty lame to blame shooting sprees on Hollywood when there are deeper factors going on.


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I don't happen to believe in Creationism but you can still be an engineer, orthodontist, biologist or lawyer after being taught Creationism, if you don't read however you can't.
I find it odd that you don't believe in Creationism, yet you want it taught in schools. If you find that such a belief or theory doesn't make sense, then why insist that it be taught?

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And it would be narcissistic to think so.
It sounds like you are mocking what I said here. Narcissism is not just an American issue, but a world issue. America is not an island.

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No, my utopia is in the next life. I just want a country where the individual matters more than the government. His sovereignty takes precedence, he is free to find his own potential, purse his own interests, follow his own faith and keep his own property while respecting the unalienable rights of others to do the same.
You can. You still can. I fail to see any proof or evidence that the United States is now suddenly like it is in Ayn Rand's book, Anthem. How exactly are we being prevented from pursuing our own interests, following our faith or finding our potential? I'm confused and baffled that you would go that far here.
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Old 02-10-2013, 04:20 PM   #42
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So what happened to the great empires and powers of the past? Were they conquered by invaders from beyond their borders or did they decay into moral decadence, bankruptcy, ethnic polarization and economic stagnation and fall at the hand of civil war and revolution from within?


thankfully, the true destroyer of empires -- foreign entanglements in places like, and especially, Afghanistan -- has been ended by Obama, finally stanching the needless loss of blood and treasure that is the true cause of decline, from the Romans to the British to the Soviets.

occupation destroys the occupier.
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Old 02-10-2013, 04:24 PM   #43
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is this what you have in mind INDY, when you think of the past?

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To be happy, we must admit women and men aren't 'equal'
By Suzanne Venker
Published February 05, 2013
FoxNews.com


A war on men?

Norman Vincent Peale, author of "The Power of Positive Thinking," once wrote these words: “Change your thoughts, and you change your world.”

His statement is highlighted at the beginning of my new book, "How to Choose a Husband and Make Peace with Marriage." Its premise is that if women want to be successful in love, they should reject the cultural script they’ve been sold and adopt a whole new view of men and marriage.

As products of divorce, the modern generation has few role models for lasting love. That alone is a problem. But young women have an added burden: they’ve been raised in a society that eschews marriage. They’ve been taught instead to honor sex, singlehood and female empowerment.

Consider this statement by Rebecca Traister in Marie Claire: “The world as we’ve known it for a very long time—one in which a woman’s value was tied to her role as a wife—is ending, right in front of us. It is now standard for a woman to spend years on her own, learning, working, earning, socializing, having sex, and yes, having babies in the manner she—and she alone—sees fit. We are living through the invention of independent female adulthood.”

This message is not an anomaly; the idea that women don’t need men or marriage is palpable. It began in earnest more than forty years ago, with the modern feminist movement. Feminists assured women their efforts would result in more satisfying marriages, but the result is something else altogether. It looks something like this:

1. Women postpone marriage indefinitely and move in and out of intense romantic relationships, or even live with their boyfriends for years at a time. Eventually, their biological clocks start ticking and many decide they better hurry up and get married to provide a stable home for their yet-to-be-born children. Trouble is, their boyfriend’s not willing to commit.

2. Marriage becomes a competitive sport. The complementary nature of marriage—in which two people work together, as equals, toward the same goal but with an appreciation for the qualities each gender brings to the table—has been obliterated. Today, husbands and wives are locked in a battle about whom does more on the home front and how they’re going to get everything done. That’s not a marriage. That’s war.
It’s time to say what no one else will: Feminism didn’t result in equality between the sexes – it resulted in mass confusion. Today, men and women have no idea who’s supposed to do what.

Prior to the 1970s, people viewed gender roles as as equally valuable. Many would argue women had the better end of the deal! It’s hard to claim women were oppressed in a nation in which men were expected to stand up when a lady enters the room or to lay down their lives to spare women life. When the Titanic went down in 1912, its sinking took 1,450 lives. Only 103 were women. One-hundred three.

Compare that with last year’s wrecked cruise line, the Costa Concordia. It resulted in fewer deaths, but there was another significant difference. “There was no ‘women and children first’ policy. There were big men, crew members, pushing their way past us to get into the lifeboats. It was disgusting,” said passenger Sandra Rogers, 62.

The captain of the ship agrees. In USA Today, Francesco Schettino was asked about his New Year’s resolution. He responded, “Bone up on the parts about ‘women and children first’ and ‘the captain goes down with his ship.’”

You see, the problem with equality is that it implies two things are interchangeable – meaning one thing can be substituted for the other with no ramifications. That is what feminists would have us believe, and anyone who contradicts this dogma is branded sexist.

But the truth must be heard. Being equal in worth, or value, is not the same as being identical, interchangeable beings. Men and women may be capable of doing many of the same things, but that doesn’t mean they want to. That we don’t have more female CEOs or stay-at-home dads proves this in spades.

Unless, of course, you’re beholden to feminism. In that case, you’ll believe the above is evidence of discrimination. You’ll believe what feminists taught you to believe: that gender is a social construct.

Those of us with children know better. We know little girls love their dolls and boys just want to kick that ball. This doesn’t mean men can’t take care of babies or women can’t play sports. It just means each gender has its own energy that flows in a specific direction. For God’s sake, let it flow.

The battle of the sexes is over. And guess what? No one won. Why not try something else on for size? Like this: men and women are equal, but different. They’ve each been blessed with amazing and unique qualities that they bring to the table. Isn’t it time we stopped fussing about who brought what and simply enjoy the feast?


Read more: To be happy, we must admit women and men aren't 'equal' | Fox News
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Old 02-10-2013, 04:36 PM   #44
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Suzanne Venker is Phyllis Schlafly's sidekick - and Schlafly is the most anti-woman woman there can be. She even once said a wife cannot be raped by her husband because sex within marriage is consensual the moment you take your vows.

ETA: the actual quote is: "By getting married, the woman has consented to sex, and I don't think you can call it rape."
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Old 02-10-2013, 04:57 PM   #45
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If gender isn't a social construct, what the hell is it? The implication here is that girls whose "energy" fails to flow "that way" are broken.

That essay is a mess.
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