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Old 09-28-2013, 09:40 AM   #361
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Both of the parties that represent the people of the U.S. look immature, clueless and lack moral obligations. It is time to set term limits, these extended vacations, extraordinary benefits they enjoy and pay increases need to be brought under control. They never get anything done and wait until the last minute knowing that these issues must be dealt with.

I do not like the Affordable Care Act, I think it will only create more problems in this country for those that are already insured, and will become a large burden of debt, it may have been designed with the less fortunate in mind but it is a tax. It is socialized medicine and the government taking control of the people.

The democrats are bullying the American people and congress with everything they want and not willing to negotiate on anything. The POTUS is not a leader. A president puts aside his affiliation and leads both parties, especially if he has been elected to his 2nd term. People wanted change and they are seeing, the "Fundamental Transformation of America"

I don't agree with everything the Republicans are doing, but they do want fiscal responsibility, the debt is out of control, there is no budget only continuing resolutions, the debt ceiling is outrageous, luckily we print more money. The cost of "Obamacare" changes everyday, with estimates of up to $6T over the next 15 years. People thought things were bad when it was $4T, then Bush added about $5T... now it is pushing $17T, these numbers most people can't even think of.

Polls indicate that the American people do not approve of the job Obama is doing (over 60%), the congress has even lower numbers on approval (under 40%), Obamacare most people don't want (over 60%) When exactly are these representatives going to listen to the people they represent ?

I don't belong to a party, I have never voted, I live outside of D.C., and these idiots are screwing with the American people. They accept no responsibility and can only blame each other, point the finger and name call.

I just don't get it, someone explain it like I am a 2 year old.

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Old 09-28-2013, 10:01 AM   #362
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How much of the US budget is consumed by defence? Let's say defence and intelligence.

What exactly are we talking about here? What is the real status of food stamps or whatever, in the picture.

Incidentally, the Affordable Care Act is nothing like socialised medicine. (Somewhat) Socialised medicine is the UK National Health Service or the Australian Medicare. No comparison.
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Old 09-28-2013, 11:10 AM   #363
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Socialised medicine is the best thing that ever happened in this country. You wish to seek profit from others suffering? I know it is more nuanced than that, but fundamentally that is capitalist medicine.

I do not understand the disconnect, its OK for a few large companies which you have no say in, to control your health decisions, but the government voted for by the people can not have any input?

I know the NHS has its fair share of issues, I work in it every single day as a nurse, but it's a damn sight better value for money and for the greater good than how healthcare operates in the US, I would venture it is much more Christian philosophically than the US approach.

Anyway don't actually most people approve of most of the measures implemented in the ACA, but when labelled "Obamacare" people feel worse about it? People voted Obama in knowing about Obamacare right? That is his mandate, he should stick with it.

What I think we need to is get ordinary people much more involved in government, tie people into the decision making process, otherwise I think we are going to continue to get this scenario of people treating those they vote in as some sort of weird fish in the pond, rather than people whose purpose is to do something beneficial, instead of seeing the corporations and markets as the holy grail.
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Old 09-28-2013, 02:35 PM   #364
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Both of the parties that represent the people of the U.S. look immature, clueless and lack moral obligations. It is time to set term limits, these extended vacations, extraordinary benefits they enjoy and pay increases need to be brought under control. They never get anything done and wait until the last minute knowing that these issues must be dealt with. I do not like the Affordable Care Act, I think it will only create more problems in this country for those that are already insured, and will become a large burden of debt, it may have been designed with the less fortunate in mind but it is a tax. It is socialized medicine and the government taking control of the people. The democrats are bullying the American people and congress with everything they want and not willing to negotiate on anything. The POTUS is not a leader. A president puts aside his affiliation and leads both parties, especially if he has been elected to his 2nd term. People wanted change and they are seeing, the "Fundamental Transformation of America" I don't agree with everything the Republicans are doing, but they do want fiscal responsibility, the debt is out of control, there is no budget only continuing resolutions, the debt ceiling is outrageous, luckily we print more money. The cost of "Obamacare" changes everyday, with estimates of up to $6T over the next 15 years. People thought things were bad when it was $4T, then Bush added about $5T... now it is pushing $17T, these numbers most people can't even think of. Polls indicate that the American people do not approve of the job Obama is doing (over 60%), the congress has even lower numbers on approval (under 40%), Obamacare most people don't want (over 60%) When exactly are these representatives going to listen to the people they represent ? I don't belong to a party, I have never voted, I live outside of D.C., and these idiots are screwing with the American people. They accept no responsibility and can only blame each other, point the finger and name call. I just don't get it, someone explain it like I am a 2 year old.


Try voting.
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Old 09-28-2013, 02:49 PM   #365
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I just don't get it, someone explain it like I am a 2 year old.
I can try. But I don't know about a 2 year old understanding this, but an adult should be able to. Democrats and Republicans want to stay in office more than anything. Every single thing they do is dictated by this.

Everything they do has a plausibly denied alternative explanation. Thus, everything they do is political. This is not conspiracy, it is strategy. And it works, so they keep doing it. Complicated by the fact that there are, indeed, some genuinely held positions in either party. But practically none of the people voting on these issues are willing to lose their re-elections.

Exacerbated by the fact that most, not all, but most of the people voting have been 'trained' by the two-party hyper partisan system. Us vs Them. The people endorse the system, continually sending morons to office as 'change agents'. And the morons reinforce the hyper partisan system. And the cynical politicians (the majority, those smart enough to know the hyper partisanship is only a political ploy) use it to their advantage to stay in office but also to get their way (as they do all have genuinely held positions). And people like Rush Limbaugh understand the cynicism and make tons of money off of it, by perpetuating this cycle of partisanship. But it's not just Rush Limbaugh, it's almost all of the national media. The difference being most of the rest of them don't understand how they add fuel to the fire. All in the name of making money, for their respective media outlets.

And so they don't compromise. It's always about elections and re-elections. This is how 90% of Americans (in multiple polls) support sensible firearm regulation and NOTHING (no exaggeration) gets done.

People blame the NRA but the NRA has no power if the politicians disregard them. But they won't because the NRA can buy enough influence to defeat these politicians in their own primaries. And that's it. Does that mean there aren't politicians that genuinely oppose all firearm regulation? No. But they are the minority. The majority know better but they have a plausibly denied explanation for voting the way they vote. And the reason they vote that way is because lobbies like the NRA determine their political future.

As Santorum admitted in a Rep. debate in 2011...it's a team game. And the Republicans have such a small natural appeal to the majority of the country, they have to play hardball more often, becoming much more cynical (i.e. convincing poor people to vote against their best interests). In addition to this, there is a fair amount of flat out ignorance pulled into the party because of this appeal towards certain types of voters. Democrats are more idealistic and live in a fantasy world, loving to hand out benefits without much mind to fiscal responsibility. But also, in general, just not dealing with the reality at hand. Idealistic fools.

Both serve as caricatures for the other party to prop up and beat into shreds. This is the main device of the two-party hyper partisan machine. Perpetual conflict. The Democrats fit into those shoes, because they are worried about staying in office, and while in those shoes, the Republicans can beat them into a rhetorical pulp. And obviously this is true vice versa. It never ends because it works and it can't be easily reformed because the people paying the most attention, actual voters, buy right into it.

Republicans opposed Clinton every step of the way. Democrats opposed Bush every step of the way. But each time there is a new President, it's supposed to be some version of "the worst ever" (either the President himself or the treatment of said President), because that in and of itself is a political scheme by the respective party. Or in Obama's case, this idea of the race card is played when it wouldn't have mattered at all otherwise. Great example of how the crowd that considers themselves intellectual (say, Rachel Maddow) are completely duped by this system. Because of their own ideologies. Watch what happens if/when HRC becomes President. We'll be hearing about the gender card and Dems/liberals will be saying she's receiving the worst treatment ever and Reps/conservatives will say she's the worst president ever. Predictable like clockwork. What else is new?

As for genuinely held positions, which we all have (including elected politicians), they are all polluted by this system. Nothing can get done because ultimately you can't rely on a politician that is owned by lobbies and special interests to do the common-sense thing. The shining example of this, which most super liberals in FYM should even be able to recognize is the Affordable Care Act aka Obamacare. The bill is a turd. Everyone hates it and we ended up with that legislation because of pure politics. For one, Obama had spent ALL of his political capital to do it in his first year in office. Quite simply, he had no choice but to pass SOMETHING. And two, because of this, the Health Insurance industry themselves wrote the bill behind closed doors. "Change" you can believe in? It was always impossible. I said as much 5 years ago here in FYM. And I'm sure people thought it was all conspiratorial wank. But to wrap this up, just know, in order to explain or understand the issues themselves, (such as economics) people have to understand all of this first.

The system is cynical, therefore any explanation of the system reads cynical.

This is all true. If someone wants to remain in denial, then they'll truly never get it. They'll always be confounded and playing into the vicious cycle "look at the terrible thing they're doing now!" I am never really surprised. At least not very often. It's highly predictable. Same shit, different year. Don't think that it's not.
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Old 09-28-2013, 04:42 PM   #366
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Is "terrorists" actually too kind?

http://m.us.wsj.com/articles/a/SB100...?mg=reno64-wsj
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Old 09-28-2013, 07:17 PM   #367
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How much of the US budget is consumed by defence? Let's say defence and intelligence.

What exactly are we talking about here? What is the real status of food stamps or whatever, in the picture.
There is one and ONLY ONE way out of the current debt situation (both personal and national) and that is inflation. We won't see it for the next 5 years or more likely 10 for a number of reasons but the truth is that it's really the only chance we've got.

All this talk about cutting spending, etc does nothing to address the structural issues, which have to be solved by inflation.
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Old 09-30-2013, 09:39 PM   #368
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Should we talk about the massive subsidies oil gets that keep our prices significantly lower than anywhere else in the developed world?

Talk about propping up and industry.
We should talk about them, or to be more precise, the falsehood of their existence.


What subsidizes or tax breaks does "oil" get? Be specific.

How much do they amount to?

Do other industries receive the same tax treatment in the federal tax code?

Who pays a higher effective tax rate; Big oil companies or Google or G.E or Apple?
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Old 09-30-2013, 10:11 PM   #369
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http://budget.house.gov/uploadedfiles/crsr42374.pdf
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Old 09-30-2013, 10:15 PM   #370
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It's not so much subsidies as a lack of a meaningful gas tax (current federal rate is like 18 cents/gallon).
How disingenuous of your argument to not include state taxes on gasoline which add an additional 8 cents (lowest) to 50 cents (highest) to a gallon of gas with an average about in the middle.
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It is good and SIMPLE economics (INDY, hope you're paying attention) to apply a gas tax because it's economics 101 that price should reflect cost.
Speaking of economics 101.

Which income group would disproportionately be hurt by increasing the taxes on gasoline. Yup, again, it's the middle class, especially those that commute to work. The middle class that will pay at the grocery store and everywhere else as higher fuel costs are passed on to the consumer. And the same middle class who have seen their standard of living decrease the past decade.

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Except with gasoline, extraction cost does not provide an accurate picture due to the high social costs that come along with the use of gasoline (air pollution, Middle East politics, etc). Hence, what makes good economic sense is to apply a gasoline tax in order to offset social costs introduced by the use of gasoline. Such a tax would also have an indirect benefit of stimulating R&D of clean and alternative energies.
What makes good sense is to use our own fossil fuels thus stimulating our own economy rather than subsidizing terror states in the Middle East.
Now as Digitize pointed out, this was an argument for Cap & Trade but as the case for man-made global warming falls apart so does the argument. Except with the orthodox that is.
Nitrogen oxides, carbon monoxide and unburned hydrocarbons are pollutants. Not CO2.

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It is politically unfeasible in the US to raise the taxes. The solution should be to raise them incrementally. But you just need to sniff a post by INDY to tell you why such a rational move, based on plain ol' economic good sense, can't even be debated lest you be accused of being a communist.
Assuming your argument was solid do you really think higher taxes on gasoline wouldn't just end up flushed down the same suckhole that has given us $17 trillion dollars of debt?
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Old 09-30-2013, 10:23 PM   #371
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Do other industries receive the same tax treatment in the federal tax code?

Who pays a higher effective tax rate; Big oil companies or Google or G.E or Apple?

In addition, would you repeal all those listed including the ones that benefit chiefly small and mid-sized oil companies?

Would the loss of any of these actually result in less revenues as risky and less profitable wells are abandoned?

If I started a thread on this would participate and debate?
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Old 10-01-2013, 02:04 PM   #372
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no time to really post, so i'll let someone else:


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I’ve been trying to think of something original to say about the absurdity now transpiring in Washington, DC. I’ve said roughly what I think in short; and I defer to Fallows for an important dose of reality against the predictably moronic coverage of the Washington Post.

But there is something more here. How does one party that has lost two presidential elections and a Supreme Court case – as well as two Senate elections - think it has the right to shut down the entire government and destroy the full faith and credit of the United States Treasury to get its way on universal healthcare now? I see no quid pro quo even. Just pure blackmail, resting on understandable and predictable public concern whenever a major reform is enacted. But what has to be resisted is any idea that this is government or politics as usual. It is an attack on the governance and the constitutional order of the United States.

When ideologies become as calcified, as cocooned and as extremist as those galvanizing the GOP, the American system of government cannot work. But I fear this nullification of the last two elections is a deliberate attempt to ensure that the American system of government as we have known it cannot work. It cannot, must not work, in the mindset of these radicals, because they simply do not accept the legitimacy of a President and Congress of the opposing party. The GOP does not regard the president as merely wrong – but as illegitimate. Not misguided – illegitimate. This is not about ending Obamacare as such (although that is a preliminary scalp); it is about nullifying this presidency, the way the GOP attempted to nullify the last Democratic presidency by impeachment.

Except this time, of course, we cannot deny that race too is an added factor to the fathomless sense of entitlement felt among the GOP far right. You saw it in birtherism; in the Southern GOP’s constant outrageous claims of Obama’s alleged treason and alliance with Islamist enemies; in providing zero votes for a stimulus that was the only thing that prevented a global depression of far worse proportions; in the endless race-baiting from Fox News and the talk radio right. And in this racially-charged atmosphere, providing access to private healthcare insurance to the working poor is obviously the point of no return.

Even though the law is almost identical to that of their last presidential nominee’s in Massachusetts, the GOP is prepared to destroy both the American government and the global economy to stop it. They see it, it seems to me, as both some kind of profound attack on the Constitution (something even Supreme Court Chief Justice John Roberts viewed as a step too far) and, in some inchoate way, as a racial hand-out, however preposterous that is. And that is at the core of the recklessness behind this attack on the US – or at least my best attempt to understand something that has long since gone beyond reason. This is the point of no return – a black president doing something for black citizens (even though the vast majority of beneficiaries of Obamacare will be non-black).

I regard this development as one of the more insidious and anti-constitutional acts of racist vandalism against the American republic in my adult lifetime. Those who keep talking as if there are two sides to this, when there are not, are as much a part of the vandalism as Ted Cruz. Obama has played punctiliously by the constitutional rules – two elections, one court case – while the GOP has decided that the rules are for dummies and suckers, and throws over the board game as soon as it looks as if it is going to lose by the rules as they have always applied.

The president must therefore hold absolutely firm. This time, there can be no compromise because the GOP isn’t offering any. They’re offering the kind of constitutional surrender that would effectively end any routine operation of the American government. If we cave to their madness, we may unravel our system of government, something one might have thought conservatives would have opposed. Except these people are not conservatives. They’re vandals.

This time, the elephant must go down. And if possible, it must be so wounded it does not get up for a long time to come.

The Nullification Party � The Dish

race isn't the whole story. but it's part of the story.
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Old 10-01-2013, 02:28 PM   #373
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But there is something more here. How does one party that has lost two presidential elections and a Supreme Court case – as well as two Senate elections - think it has the right to shut down the entire government and destroy the full faith and credit of the United States Treasury to get its way on universal healthcare now?
Perfect summary of the GOP's outrageous behaviour.

The American people (whom the Tea Party constantly claims it represents) had their opportunity to vote in an election which gave every chance to the Republicans to win the House and the Senate. Aside from the blatant gerrymandering by Republican governors, you also had very vulnerable Democratic senators. It isn't their fault that Republicans fielded insane candidates who had more interest in a woman's hooha than in the economy and who believed that women's ladybits can prevent conception during rape.

The Republicans blew it and lost. And after fielding something like 40 separate bills to get rid of the ACA (all of which failed) and a constitutional challenge which also failed due to the action of that communist John Roberts, they are yet again attempting the absurd.

Try winning an election, folks.
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Old 10-01-2013, 02:31 PM   #374
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just to add, the Democratic Reps in the House have more aggregate popular votes behind their victories than the Republican Reps.

thanks, gerrymandering.
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Old 10-01-2013, 02:37 PM   #375
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communist John Roberts
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