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Old 09-27-2013, 01:08 PM   #346
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Just to play devil's advocate here: how is President Obama not holding the economy hostage by insisting that he will sign no budget without funding for the potentially economically deleterious Affordable Care Act?


because the ACA is the law of the land, ratified by the SCOTUS, and part of the will of the american people as demonstrated in the 2008 and 2012 elections as well as a majority in the Senate and a majority of popular votes for D representatives in the House.

if the R's would like to change or repeal the ACA, they can start by winning elections.
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Old 09-27-2013, 05:46 PM   #347
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Well, with solar power dropping an average of 7% per year and fossil fuels rising an average of 4.5% a year - it won't be long before we finally have you on board. Better late than never...
That is being accomplished in great part with federal subsidies propping up green energy while simultaneously wagging a war on coal through EPA regulations and virtually shutting down gas and oil leases on federal lands raising the price of fossil fuels.

And which income group is harmed most by increased utility bills and prices at the pump?

That would be the middle class. The same middle class that's seen their net worth shrink the past 5 years.

Our economy struggles and people suffer because this administration is beholden to environmental extremists rather than free enterprise.

And I need not remind you of the current difficulties in transporting, storing and over coming the intermittent properties of solar and wind power. By all means, keep informed of technological advances but please don't forget the simple economics of energy supply and demand.
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Old 09-27-2013, 06:01 PM   #348
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There's a war on coal and THEY'RE TAKIN' OUR JOBS!!

Transporting and storing energy. That's the reason this newfangled electricity hasn't gotten off the ground yet
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Old 09-27-2013, 06:09 PM   #349
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don't forget the simple economics of energy supply and demand.
Maybe there are at least two things about energy supply and demand that aren't so simple.

1) Prices and supply are manipulated by banks
2) If we had continued to burn fossil fuels without any concern for the environment (let's say with a late nineteenth/early twentieth century concern) - then everything on the globe would be covered in a mile deep layer of black soot.

No market, especially energy, is as simple as "supply and demand." There are many, many factors to consider. Sustainability, time to market, downstream costs, impact to national security, impact to other nations, immediate/long-term impact to the health of the population...
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Old 09-27-2013, 06:11 PM   #350
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Dey took our jerb!
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Old 09-27-2013, 06:11 PM   #351
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der trk er jrrb
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Old 09-27-2013, 06:14 PM   #352
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Should we talk about the massive subsidies oil gets that keep our prices significantly lower than anywhere else in the developed world?

Talk about propping up and industry.
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Old 09-27-2013, 06:19 PM   #353
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Our economy struggles and people suffer because this administration is beholden to environmental extremists rather than free enterprise.
C'mon INDY - this is not an either/or scenario. And if you would do some further research, solar will reach non-subsidized grid parity within 5-10 years. After that, it will get cheaper...and cheaper...and cheaper...

While the opposite is true of fossil fuels.

I'm not an environmental extremists, but as a Christian I certainly believe in good stewardship of our universe (and not purposely causing cancer and other diseases to other people). I'm also excited that we are right around the corner from cheap, clean, ubiquitous energy. What's wrong with that? No matter how you dice it - solar wins. Which means we win.
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Old 09-27-2013, 06:23 PM   #354
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der trk er jrrb
I am laughing my ass off right now just thinking about them saying it.

I especially like the one in the wrestling episode.

I think one of them says "They took his dog!"
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Old 09-27-2013, 06:40 PM   #355
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How awesome is this?

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Old 09-27-2013, 06:42 PM   #356
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Woah, there's South Park cosplay?
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Old 09-27-2013, 10:29 PM   #357
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Should we talk about the massive subsidies oil gets that keep our prices significantly lower than anywhere else in the developed world?

Talk about propping up and industry.
It's not so much subsidies as a lack of a meaningful gas tax (current federal rate is like 18 cents/gallon). It is good and SIMPLE economics (INDY, hope you're paying attention) to apply a gas tax because it's economics 101 that price should reflect cost. Except with gasoline, extraction cost does not provide an accurate picture due to the high social costs that come along with the use of gasoline (air pollution, Middle East politics, etc). Hence, what makes good economic sense is to apply a gasoline tax in order to offset social costs introduced by the use of gasoline. Such a tax would also have an indirect benefit of stimulating R&D of clean and alternative energies.

It is politically unfeasible in the US to raise the taxes. The solution should be to raise them incrementally. But you just need to sniff a post by INDY to tell you why such a rational move, based on plain ol' economic good sense, can't even be debated lest you be accused of being a communist.
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Old 09-28-2013, 12:27 AM   #358
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The meaningless and symbolic vote that the Democrats took
The vote then certainly wasn't meaningless and it certainly wasn't merely symbolic. (The arguments against raising the debt ceiling are the same now as they were then; only some of the names, faces, and party affiliations have changed.) Read Obama's full text from that speech; his words -- particularly about how, when we continue to borrow from foreign powers, we become perhaps inextricably tied to their interests and policies -- were understandably cautionary, and, as it turns out, prescient. The President may try to revise the context of his statements now (conveniently enough), but they made a lot of sense then, as well as now. The writing was already on the wall in 2006 in terms of the financial crisis that was coming; it was just that no one knew how bad things were going to get.

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You're being disingenuous.
I feel badly that you feel that way, but I don't think I am. I believe in financial responsibility, no matter who's in the White House or what color our President is. Accusing the GOP of terrorism, or charging them with racism because they agree with the President's former statements -- made before he had an apparent change of heart (and referred to his former comments as those of a political opportunist) -- seems silly. Calling the GOP's stance on fiscal responsibility, when the Democrats had literally been calling for the same stance until they got into power, seems actually disingenuous. I have no problem calling all our politicians disingenuous by the way -- they're all interested in covering their asses. This is not, however, where true leadership will be found.
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Old 09-28-2013, 08:08 AM   #359
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Except with gasoline, extraction cost does not provide an accurate picture due to the high social costs that come along with the use of gasoline (air pollution, Middle East politics, etc).
This basic argument, more or less, applies for a carbon tax or cap and trade in general, at least in my mind.
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Old 09-28-2013, 08:34 AM   #360
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The vote then certainly wasn't meaningless and it certainly wasn't merely symbolic. (The arguments against raising the debt ceiling are the same now as they were then; only some of the names, faces, and party affiliations have changed.) Read Obama's full text from that speech; his words -- particularly about how, when we continue to borrow from foreign powers, we become perhaps inextricably tied to their interests and policies -- were understandably cautionary, and, as it turns out, prescient. The President may try to revise the context of his statements now (conveniently enough), but they made a lot of sense then, as well as now. The writing was already on the wall in 2006 in terms of the financial crisis that was coming; it was just that no one knew how bad things were going to get. I feel badly that you feel that way, but I don't think I am. I believe in financial responsibility, no matter who's in the White House or what color our President is. Accusing the GOP of terrorism, or charging them with racism because they agree with the President's former statements -- made before he had an apparent change of heart (and referred to his former comments as those of a political opportunist) -- seems silly. Calling the GOP's stance on fiscal responsibility, when the Democrats had literally been calling for the same stance until they got into power, seems actually disingenuous. I have no problem calling all our politicians disingenuous by the way -- they're all interested in covering their asses. This is not, however, where true leadership will be found.


Nathan, it's an entirely different situation.
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