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Old 09-26-2013, 10:02 PM   #331
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Originally Posted by digitize View Post
There's more to it than that. INDY can correct me, but I think that the average Republican believes that government investment in solar makes the economy worse while not being worth that tradeoff; that gun control's effects in limiting mass shootings are limited enough to not worth the sacrificing of individual liberty, or that gun control makes crime worse; that stimulus actually hurts job-creation (an opinion shared by most economists, actually); and that state-sponsored health care is bad for health care/the economy enough to not be worth any benefits that it may bring. Those tradeoffs are where policy differs, and it's important to understand them in developing policy positions. I'm not sure that ascribing a cause of cowardice for positions that are somewhat reasonably thought through (even though I certainly don't agree with all of them) is particularly productive.


I wouldn't correct a thing except to add that conservatives are all for solar and wind when and if they make economic sense. We're more interested in controlling criminals and nutjobs than guns. We understand that Washington doesn't create wealth it only redistributes it. And we would point out what will soon be painfully obvious to everyone but the drones; Obamacare isn't about providing healthcare it's about controlling healthcare.
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Old 09-26-2013, 10:08 PM   #332
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just wait to see how they act when the next president has a vagina. #evenworse


Yes, please lecture conservatives on unhinged reactions to a woman occupying the White House.
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Old 09-26-2013, 11:12 PM   #333
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What did the '06 Democrats do that would warrant a comparison with defunding the government and this debt ceiling nonsense?
You mean besides unanimously voting against raising the debt ceiling, as advocated by then-Senator Barack Obama in 2006?

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The fact that we are here today to debate raising America’s debt limit is a sign of leadership failure. It is a sign that the U.S. Government can’t pay its own bills. It is a sign that we now depend on ongoing financial assistance from foreign countries to finance our Government’s reckless fiscal policies. … Increasing America’s debt weakens us domestically and internationally. Leadership means that “the buck stops here.” Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better. ... ... I therefore intend to oppose the effort to increase America’s debt limit.
Incidentally, the then-Senator opposed raising the debt ceiling to $9T. Now it's at $14.3T.
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Old 09-26-2013, 11:25 PM   #334
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I wouldn't correct a thing except to add that conservatives are all for solar and wind when and if they make economic sense.
Well, with solar power dropping an average of 7% per year and fossil fuels rising an average of 4.5% a year - it won't be long before we finally have you on board. Better late than never...
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Old 09-26-2013, 11:38 PM   #335
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You mean besides unanimously voting against raising the debt ceiling, as advocated by then-Senator Barack Obama in 2006? Incidentally, the then-Senator opposed raising the debt ceiling to $9T. Now it's at $14.3T.

Here's some honesty:

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I think that it's important to understand the vantage point of a senator versus the vantage point of a president. When you're a senator, traditionally what's happened is, this is always a lousy vote. Nobody likes to be tagged as having increased the debt limit — for the United States by a trillion dollars. As president, you start realizing, you know what, we, we can't play around with this stuff. This is the full faith and credit of the United States. And so that was just an example of a new senator making what is a political vote as opposed to doing what was important for the country. And I'm the first one to acknowledge it.

Read more at http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama...L1WcMTUKtPs.99

This also comes nowhere close to shutting down the government over Obamacare.

So, again, false equivalence.
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Old 09-26-2013, 11:41 PM   #336
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Yes, please lecture conservatives on unhinged reactions to a woman occupying the White House.
Setting aside the fuckability factor, which, alongside being anti-choice, seems to have been this delusional Alaskan grifter's only qualifications for office, we have a long, long, long list of unhinged conservative reactions to Hillary Clinton.
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Old 09-26-2013, 11:43 PM   #337
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Well, with solar power dropping an average of 7% per year and fossil fuels rising an average of 4.5% a year - it won't be long before we finally have you on board. Better late than never...

But will the GOP be on board? Exxon Mobile controls a lot of politicians.

I should be more clear -- my revulsion is more about the GOP's than conservatives themselves.
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Old 09-27-2013, 12:26 AM   #338
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again, false equivalence.
It's not. The vote in 2006 was along party lines for the Democrats, who voted unanimously against raising the debt limit. You asked what the Dems in 2006 that was equivalent to voting against raising the debt ceiling. The answer is clear: the exact same damn thing.

So accusing the GOP of playing the exact same play book the Dems did, but calling the GOP's tactics racist, feels like an obfuscation and a smoke screen.

Let's hope our politicians can get beyond the political votes and start doing what's best for the country.
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Old 09-27-2013, 12:50 AM   #339
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I should be more clear -- my revulsion is more about the GOP's than conservatives themselves.
I can appreciate that...especially as a former Republican. I'm not to fond of the GOP these days either.

IS there a political party that supports personal conservatism, social libertarianism, and fiscal liberalism?
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Old 09-27-2013, 08:30 AM   #340
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It's not. The vote in 2006 was along party lines for the Democrats, who voted unanimously against raising the debt limit. You asked what the Dems in 2006 that was equivalent to voting against raising the debt ceiling. The answer is clear: the exact same damn thing..
Really?

The meaningless and symbolic vote that the Democrats took, on political grounds as is par for the course for them and everyone else in Washington, which had no chance of passing and caused no worry in the markets is the same as what's happened during Obama's term?

When the AAA rating was lost? And Republican shenanigans reached unheard of levels?

You're being disingenuous.
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Old 09-27-2013, 09:42 AM   #341
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Setting aside the fuckability factor, which, alongside being anti-choice, seems to have been this delusional Alaskan grifter's only qualifications for office, we have a long, long, long list of unhinged conservative reactions to Hillary Clinton.
Exactly. Stupid and (really really) pretty versus (really really) smart and not-so-pretty? We know what conservatives like.
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Old 09-27-2013, 09:47 AM   #342
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kind of slammed for time today, and anitram said what i would have, but i'll add this opinion piece:


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A Republican Ransom Note
By THE EDITORIAL BOARD
Published: September 26, 2013 105 Comments

On Wednesday, Treasury Secretary Jacob Lew sent the House a very serious warning that, for the first time, the United States would be unable to pay its bills beginning on Oct. 17 if the debt ceiling is not lifted. House leaders responded on Thursday with one of the least serious negotiating proposals in modern Congressional history: a jaw-dropping list of ransom demands containing more than a dozen discredited Republican policy fantasies.

We’ll refrain from deliberately sabotaging the global economy, Speaker John Boehner and the other leaders said, if President Obama allows more oil drilling on federal lands. And drops regulations on greenhouse gases. And builds the Keystone XL oil pipeline. And stops paying for the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau. And makes it harder to sue for medical malpractice. And, of course, halts health care reform for a year.

The list would be laughable if the threat were not so serious. A failure to raise the debt ceiling would cause a default on government debt, shattering the world’s faith in Treasury bonds as an investment vehicle and almost certainly bringing on another economic downturn. Unlike a government shutdown, a default could leave the Treasury without enough money to pay Social Security benefits or the paychecks of troops.

The full effects remain unknown because no Congress has ever allowed the government to go over the brink before. The Government Accountability Office estimated that simply by threatening to default in 2011, Republicans cost taxpayers $1.3 billion in higher interest payments because of that uncertainty. The 10-year cost of those higher-interest bonds is $18.9 billion.

Any sober-minded lawmaker should realize that the danger of trifling with the debt limit is far too high. But Mr. Boehner has been encouraging his members to toss their pet projects — hey, let’s insist on Congressional approval for every major federal regulation! — onto the towering list of demands.

By day’s end, many Republican members remained skeptical of the leadership plan. But the House leaders clearly hope the president will take the bait and negotiate on a few items on the list, forcing him to break his promise never to bargain over the debt ceiling. Many items on the list are intended to put vulnerable red-state Democratic senators on the spot should the plan wind up in their chamber. One of them, Joe Manchin III of West Virginia, said Thursday he could support a year’s delay on health reform. If the unified Democratic opposition to the debt-ceiling threat is shattered in the Senate, the pressure on Mr. Obama to come to the table would be intense.

But the absurdity of the list shows just how important it is that Mr. Obama ignore every demand and force the House extremists to decide whether they really want to be responsible for an economic catastrophe. He made a mistake by negotiating in 2011, hoping to reach a grand bargain; that produced the corrosive sequester cuts.

To prevent the House from making every debt-ceiling increase an opportunity to issue extortionist demands for rejected policies they can achieve in no other way, the president has to put an end to the routine creation of emergencies once and for all by simply saying no.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/27/op...T5DxcOyIeQ5YQ&


while a comment like "terrorist" isn't helpful, it doesn't seem all that far off the mark.
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Old 09-27-2013, 10:30 AM   #343
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while a comment like "terrorist" isn't helpful, it doesn't seem all that far off the mark.
We need to get some software architects to write a program to run our government - obviously people are incapable of it.
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Old 09-27-2013, 10:47 AM   #344
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So it's basically a less-nice Ron Swanson, drunk, and with a gun.
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Old 09-27-2013, 12:36 PM   #345
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Just to play devil's advocate here: how is President Obama not holding the economy hostage by insisting that he will sign no budget without funding for the potentially economically deleterious Affordable Care Act?
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