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Old 09-26-2013, 06:29 AM   #316
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Old 09-26-2013, 07:20 AM   #317
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Isn't this cowardly behaviour inherent to that party (GOP)? "If it's not as cheap and efficient as coal is right now, we shouldn't pursue it" "If gun control does not prevent all mass shootings, we shouldn't pursue it" "If a stimulus does not result in jobs for everyone, we shouldn't pursue it" "If a health care overhaul does not remedy all issues immediately, we shouldn't pursue it" I think their lack of responsibility, lack of ambition, unwillingness to take action and defeatist attitude quite shocking.

It's not that shocking. We have a black president.
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Old 09-26-2013, 08:26 AM   #318
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Isn't this cowardly behaviour inherent to that party (GOP)? "If it's not as cheap and efficient as coal is right now, we shouldn't pursue it" "If gun control does not prevent all mass shootings, we shouldn't pursue it" "If a stimulus does not result in jobs for everyone, we shouldn't pursue it" "If a health care overhaul does not remedy all issues immediately, we shouldn't pursue it" I think their lack of responsibility, lack of ambition, unwillingness to take action and defeatist attitude quite shocking.

There's more to it than that. INDY can correct me, but I think that the average Republican believes that government investment in solar makes the economy worse while not being worth that tradeoff; that gun control's effects in limiting mass shootings are limited enough to not worth the sacrificing of individual liberty, or that gun control makes crime worse; that stimulus actually hurts job-creation (an opinion shared by most economists, actually); and that state-sponsored health care is bad for health care/the economy enough to not be worth any benefits that it may bring. Those tradeoffs are where policy differs, and it's important to understand them in developing policy positions. I'm not sure that ascribing a cause of cowardice for positions that are somewhat reasonably thought through (even though I certainly don't agree with all of them) is particularly productive.
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Old 09-26-2013, 09:16 AM   #319
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There's more to it than that. INDY can correct me, but I think that the average Republican believes that government investment in solar makes the economy worse while not being worth that tradeoff; that gun control's effects in limiting mass shootings are limited enough to not worth the sacrificing of individual liberty, or that gun control makes crime worse; that stimulus actually hurts job-creation (an opinion shared by most economists, actually); and that state-sponsored health care is bad for health care/the economy enough to not be worth any benefits that it may bring. Those tradeoffs are where policy differs, and it's important to understand them in developing policy positions. I'm not sure that ascribing a cause of cowardice for positions that are somewhat reasonably thought through (even though I certainly don't agree with all of them) is particularly productive.
Nice post! It's important to not demonize opposing views.
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Old 09-26-2013, 12:18 PM   #320
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It's not that shocking. We have a black president.
#racecard
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Old 09-26-2013, 12:34 PM   #321
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#racecard

just wait to see how they act when the next president has a vagina. #evenworse
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Old 09-26-2013, 02:03 PM   #322
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just wait to see how they act when the next president has a vagina. #evenworse
I'm curious to see what you think of Digitize's post. It seemed to be a clear and coherent exploration of the Right's position. I certainly hope dialogue across different ideological lines is still possible.
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Old 09-26-2013, 03:11 PM   #323
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I'm curious to see what you think of Digitize's post. It seemed to be a clear and coherent exploration of the Right's position. I certainly hope dialogue across different ideological lines is still possible.

i don't think Obama's race can ever be discounted in the sheer level of disdain and nihilism that's come across from the GOP since 2008. they have spent the past 5 years trying to reverse the results of two elections (where they got clobbered). race is a part of the American story, and it's always a factor. to pretend that racial resentment isn't a part of the Obama story, and to pretend that even something like "food stamps" isn't loaded, coded language, is simply wrong. and i think people aren't as willing to admit their subtle prejudices, nor do they quite realize how affected we all are by such things -- we may not even be aware of the reactions we have.

but of course that isn't the whole story. of course digitze's post was coherent and helpful, and i readily admit that my post wasn't helpful, it was intended as a bit of off-the-cuff snark, a little bit funny, and definitely true to an extent.
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Old 09-26-2013, 04:09 PM   #324
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i don't think Obama's race can ever be discounted in the sheer level of disdain and nihilism that's come across from the GOP since 2008. they have spent the past 5 years trying to reverse the results of two elections (where they got clobbered). race is a part of the American story, and it's always a factor. to pretend that racial resentment isn't a part of the Obama story, and to pretend that even something like "food stamps" isn't loaded, coded language, is simply wrong. and i think people aren't as willing to admit their subtle prejudices, nor do they quite realize how affected we all are by such things -- we may not even be aware of the reactions we have.

but of course that isn't the whole story. of course digitze's post was coherent and helpful, and i readily admit that my post wasn't helpful, it was intended as a bit of off-the-cuff snark, a little bit funny, and definitely true to an extent.

I agree that race plays a factor in the high levels of hate Republicans have for Obama. I remember there was a lot of disdain for Bill Clinton, but an obsessive hate for Hillary Clinton back in the 90s. So I do agree that race and gender are playing a role in many of a Republicans' attitude these days. To sum it up, having a black man in the White House can reveal a whole different side of someone.

ETA: But let's not forget that even Laura Bush got some verbal attacks from liberals, even though there seems very little to hate her about. Such is life in a divided country
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Old 09-26-2013, 05:44 PM   #325
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There's more to it than that. INDY can correct me, but I think that the average Republican believes that government investment in solar makes the economy worse while not being worth that tradeoff; that gun control's effects in limiting mass shootings are limited enough to not worth the sacrificing of individual liberty, or that gun control makes crime worse; that stimulus actually hurts job-creation (an opinion shared by most economists, actually); and that state-sponsored health care is bad for health care/the economy enough to not be worth any benefits that it may bring. Those tradeoffs are where policy differs, and it's important to understand them in developing policy positions. I'm not sure that ascribing a cause of cowardice for positions that are somewhat reasonably thought through (even though I certainly don't agree with all of them) is particularly productive.
To which I ask Republicans, "What's the solution?" And to which I usually hear something akin to "Get government off our backs!"
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Old 09-26-2013, 06:28 PM   #326
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To which I ask Republicans, "What's the solution?" And to which I usually hear something akin to "Get government off our backs!"
The solution to the economic stuff, from what I understand, is shrinking the government. This isn't absurd if you accept the premise that an oversized government is directly responsible for our current woes. And is that not just the root of economic differences between the American left and the American right? The former believes more than the latter that the government's intervention in the economy can produce good results. Shrinking the government is not the same thing as doing nothing, and it is a policy suggestion that can be borne by more than selfishness.
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Old 09-26-2013, 06:59 PM   #327
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Shrinking government is great in theory, but it's not a solution, and the problem is there are no real solutions offered. The space program wouldn't have been done left up to the private sector, it's not profitable. The majority of research will not be done, or at least not started in the private sector, it's not profitable. Healthcare is for the most part "free market" right now and look what it's done.

We even had a poster in here once suggest that highways and interstates should be privatized, can we imagine what a profitable infrastructure would look like?!

Shrinking the government does nothing for the problem, what we need to do is overhaul the government. Remove the pork, don't just talk about it, remove it. That alone would make such an incredible impact it would be ridiculous. Regulate lobbyist more!!!

The partisan divide of today is actually a religious one. There are people on the right that worship the free market, it can do no wrong and there is no place for government. There is a sector of society today that I honestly believe their beliefs are love of free market, love of gun, love of God, in that order.

Then their are people on the left that worship government, it needs to be everywhere and regulation will ultimately give them equality for all.

Both of these sectors are small, but they're loud and have a strong hold on both parties.
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Old 09-26-2013, 08:18 PM   #328
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i don't think Obama's race can ever be discounted in the sheer level of disdain and nihilism that's come across from the GOP since 2008.
While I don't disagree that race may be a factor for some Republicans, I think it's a cheap and easy distraction to focus on the President's race as opposed to having an honest and open discussion about the deep ideological divides that separate us. The problem is that race-and-gender bias are ephemeral things that can't really be proven easily, and which only prove incendiary and emotionally manipulative. It's far easier to play that card than to actually engage the ideological divide and figure out how to resolve differences. I really like Digitize and BVS' posts in that regard. We need more of that.

I'm not sure that this helps the cause either. I can't imagine what would have happened had Bush likened Senate Democrats in 06 to terrorists.
On Debt Ceiling, WH Compares GOP To Terrorists - Business Insider
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Old 09-26-2013, 09:05 PM   #329
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What did the '06 Democrats do that would warrant a comparison with defunding the government and this debt ceiling nonsense?

I don't think false equivalence are helpful either.

I think race has been a political motivator since 1789, and most certainly wielded by the GOP since 1964.
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Old 09-26-2013, 09:46 PM   #330
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just wait to see how they act when the next president has a vagina. #evenworse
No shit.
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