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Old 02-23-2013, 09:27 PM   #151
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So, I'm ready to go back to objective economic numbers again.

I'll go on record and say that at the end of Barack Obama's second term we will have:

more people on food stamps.

a higher Civilian labor force participation rate

another credit rating downgrade

more federal employees

a lower Dow Jones

a lower Economic Freedom World Rankings

a poverty rate above the 13.2% of Obama's first day

Obamacare will have a 70% disapproval rating

A Republican identified with the Tea Party will be our next president

So step right up and defend your guy
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Old 02-23-2013, 09:30 PM   #152
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It's cute that Indy thinks it's all the president's fault
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Old 02-23-2013, 09:43 PM   #153
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[QUOTE=Pearl;7636068]You're the one who did that by mentioning the countries and cultures who are not prosperous. And when it was pointed out how xenophobic it was, you backpedaled and said it was all about capitalism and democracy, not race or religion.[uote]

I didn't back pedal; capitalism and democracy are macro values. Countries are poor not because of the color of their skin or theology but because they don't live under a value system that leads to free markets, rule of law, private property rights, human rights or representational government.
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Old 02-23-2013, 09:46 PM   #154
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So step right up and defend your guy

Well, at least you've dropped the pretense about worry over some sort of spiritual malaise. It is like a baseball game for you.

I really can't make out whatnot is you're talking about. It's not even that your generalizing, its that you're behaving like a dry drunk who had their moment of clarity and now every last little thing observed is assembled to reinforce whatever insight was gained in said moment of clarity.

It's incredibly sad what the right wing political entertainment complex has done to certain segments of society. Fortunately, that segment has been thrashed at the voting booth, and is quite literally dying off.
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Old 02-24-2013, 04:12 AM   #155
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[QUOTE=INDY500;7636080]
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Originally Posted by Pearl View Post
You're the one who did that by mentioning the countries and cultures who are not prosperous. And when it was pointed out how xenophobic it was, you backpedaled and said it was all about capitalism and democracy, not race or religion.[uote]

I didn't back pedal; capitalism and democracy are macro values. Countries are poor not because of the color of their skin or theology but because they don't live under a value system that leads to free markets, rule of law, private property rights, human rights or representational government.
oh, i get it now. "value system" is a euphemism for "christian". Nothing to do with race or religion, folks

Value systems, you see. Value systems
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Old 02-24-2013, 03:32 PM   #156
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A Republican identified with the Tea Party will be our next president
There's almost zero chance this happens. Almost zero.

The Tea Party is going to have to win the battle with the Republican establishment first. And there is a 99% chance they will lose that battle.
And then, even if that can happen, they'll probably have to beat Hills.
The Tea Party is way way too far out of step with reality.

You were speaking about "objective economic numbers" as well.

Federal spending under Bush NEVER went above 20% relative to GDP (= Bush's federal spending was lower than Reagan's spending).

So even Bush's 19% (of GDP) is too high for the Tea Party.
And 18% was the lowest spending of the last 38 years.
And that happened in 2000 when we also had our highest revenues (20%) and actually had the luxury of making cuts. Both in the same year.

You can't make sweeping cuts without lots of revenue pouring in.
Nobody sane agrees this is a good idea.

Look at spending during Reagan's vaunted 1984 and job growth years. 22%.
Everyone in the mainstream agrees that 20% is a baseline for spending.
That includes Republicans and those electing them since 1980.
The Tea Party are on the extreme fringe and are shrinking at that.
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Old 02-24-2013, 03:38 PM   #157
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The fiscal problem during the Bush years was federal revenues.
You can look at the data to confirm or you can simply ignore it.
So let's see how objective you are really interested in being.

I'm not saying that the current 24% (relative to GDP) spending is acceptable. It's certainly not. But if we're dealing with two dueling systems of economics, it's clear the Republican system refuses to pay the bills for services they use as well. Tax cuts literally, empirically, have not paid for themselves. In 1982, fed revenues were at 19%. Then the Reagan tax cuts kicked in. Fed revenues would not return to 19% again until the late 90's. And of course they never got higher than 18% under W.

We can't run the government everyone wants on MAINSTREAM Republican economics much less a Tea Party plan.

So yeah, Obama and Co. need to try to work on lowering spending. God knows congress can't get anything done. And the one brickwall to compromise? The Tea Party. It's just insane...it's an alternate universe these people live in.

We've got a sequester coming. Maybe we should just let it happen and get a small taste of austerity. Maybe nothing horrible happens. Let's wait and see.
I don't think the cuts are so enormous they'll hurt that much but I'm not sure.
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Old 02-24-2013, 06:01 PM   #158
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I think it's funny how much the premise of this thread mimics the tired old, easily refuted entropy argument for creationism.
No god, no order, folks
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Old 02-24-2013, 06:28 PM   #159
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without god we would just be animals

we are born, we live, we die,
just like all other life.
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Old 02-25-2013, 05:22 PM   #160
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What's wrong with generalizations if you can give examples to support them? Doesn't mean there aren't exceptions but what's wrong with "this is generally true"?
When you're talking about morals and the state of society, you're already walking into a very gray area that lacks a ton of objectivity. In fact, in this very post, you're linking to a study that's far from scientific.
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You certainly know how to play to an audience. Dragging race and gender into any discussion will always garner enthusiast applause (literally) from any group of warm-blooded liberals. Smart move on your part but it has no bearing on this discussion.
How the hell was I dragging race and gender into an argument? Did you even read what I said? All I said was America is very diverse. That was literally the only point I made there, nothing more, nothing less.
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You can't actually believe that? Yes "things are going to get better for some while they get worse for others" but in equal proportion or number? Then what's a recession, a recovery? It's not baseball where there is a loser for every winner.
Your post was about whether or not the United States has good "values," not about the economy, so this, as you phrased it above, "has no bearing on the discussion."
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I assume you mean more and more people are expecting the government to do a better job at making the 1% "pay their fair share" because this country has a tremendous history that predates our Constitution of churches, civil groups, individual donations of time and money and private philanthropy taking care of those in true need. Which is not to say the isn't a role for government but please...
What I mean is that more people are focusing on developing better systems for dealing with poverty. Again, I was replying to your post about values.
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And your post wasn't. In fact, in all your time here who else have you critiqued for using "sweeping generalizations" in an internet posting?
BVS? What difference does it make, though?
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Again, that's absurd. In fact Irving claims in this thread that life has never been better (true by some measures) and that the world only spins forward (a sweeping generalization if there ever was one).
What is so absurd about it? What does Irvine's statement have to do with anything? Aren't I disagreeing with him?
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And here's an example of society going backwards. I thought we discussed this in a thread but I can't find it.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/13/op...ght.html?_r=1&
I find almost all of this incredibly flawed. Do you want to have a serious discussion about it?
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Again, a failure of my generation but you don't see a problem?
I think the failure is that the study was created by one generation and taken by another, with the (admittedly natural) assumption that the "more experienced" generation certainly must know best.

I had trouble replying to most of this because you swung things back to economics when you were specifically talking about values before.
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Old 02-25-2013, 05:31 PM   #161
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[QUOTE=INDY500;7636080]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pearl View Post
You're the one who did that by mentioning the countries and cultures who are not prosperous. And when it was pointed out how xenophobic it was, you backpedaled and said it was all about capitalism and democracy, not race or religion.[uote]

I didn't back pedal; capitalism and democracy are macro values. Countries are poor not because of the color of their skin or theology but because they don't live under a value system that leads to free markets, rule of law, private property rights, human rights or representational government.
I really don't understand how capitalism has become some form of moral value, it can be good and bad but it is not the be all and end all of all human existence. I mean many economies throughout the course of human history have made advances and flourished without capitalism, Rome and it's slave/war economy, some nations did well under feudalism. Is capitalism and representative democracy really the best we can do? INDY you may say countries are not poor because of their colour or theology but you continue to imply that they should share your exact values, that of a white male Christian in order to be a success.

I also really don't get why you keep bashing Europe since most major European leaders do in general share your thoughts on free markets in general, apart from say Hollande, but Sarkozy before was pretty free market. The idea that the free market can do no wrong is just so blatantly absurd.
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Old 02-25-2013, 05:51 PM   #162
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Maybe Indy is on to something

"Our youth now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for their elders and love chatter in place of exercise; they no longer rise when elders enter the room; they contradict their parents, chatter before company; gobble up their food and tyrannize their teachers.”

 
Plato ~ 360 BC

Or maybe he should stop perpetuating age old fallacies and focus his imagination on something more productive
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Old 02-25-2013, 05:54 PM   #163
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You would chatter in place of exercise too if your choices were running around Upper Darby in a trash bag or dirty dancing with Jennifer Lawrence.
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Old 02-25-2013, 05:57 PM   #164
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I nearly didn't understand that, but finally pieced it together from the few clips I've seen.
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Old 02-27-2013, 07:15 PM   #165
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I didn't back pedal; capitalism and democracy are macro values. Countries are poor not because of the color of their skin or theology but because they don't live under a value system that leads to free markets, rule of law, private property rights, human rights or representational government.


or perhaps because they were just poor?

the whole world only spins forward.

The River of Myths by Hans Rosling | #BillsLetter - YouTube

watch the video. do you think the Ethiopian example comes from Ethiopians having a change of heart and adopting different values, or because they became less poor?
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