U2 and Sexuality - Page 4 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 07-23-2006, 08:14 PM   #46
The Fly
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 30
Local Time: 01:00 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by melon


Now we're back to square one. I'm not interested in converting you. I'm merely stating that there is a school of thought within Christianity that does not believe that homosexuality is a sin anymore than heterosexuality is a sin. It is not based on ignoring the Bible or doing whatever the hell you want.

Melon
Back again. I've told you why they exist posts ago.

Man, I'll sleep now, it's more than 9 PM here in Brazil, and I really tired.

I don't hate you, but I don't respect you. Even so, good night.
__________________

__________________
cristiano is offline  
Old 07-23-2006, 08:15 PM   #47
ONE
love, blood, life
 
melon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 11,781
Local Time: 08:00 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by cristiano
Yes and no.

Yes, sleeping with a prostitute is not the biblical idea of morality.

No, It helps. God reproved the pagan pratices because, in other things, there was homosexuality in them, and, another example, bestiality.
Bestiality is objectively wrong, because an animal can never consent. As such, this is similar justification as to why pedophilia is objectively wrong, as a minor can never consent.

But that's besides the point. It's my argument that it was the idolatry that provoked that statement, not the same-sex act. If it was meant to be a sweeping condemnation of all homosexuality, then the writers of Leviticus were perfectly capable of doing that. However, they did not. I will remember not to lie with a temple prostitute the next time I travel to Asia Minor.

Melon
__________________

__________________
melon is offline  
Old 07-23-2006, 08:17 PM   #48
ONE
love, blood, life
 
melon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 11,781
Local Time: 08:00 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by cristiano
Back again. I've told you why they exist posts ago.
I've told you plenty of things too. So why don't you listen?

Melon
__________________
melon is offline  
Old 07-23-2006, 08:20 PM   #49
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Rachel D.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Under a Pile of Words
Posts: 5,839
Local Time: 07:00 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by melon


I know that they are male temple prostitutes. I neglected to include one word in my translation:

"Men shall not lie with male temple prostitutes as with women. It is unclean."
Oh, now you mention that they were men. What else have you neglected in your translations?

[/i] It still does not change the fact that sleeping with a prostitute, male or female, is likely not what the Bible had in mind for morality. Even then, the fact that these orgies were in the context of a pagan religious ritual would not have helped.

[/QUOTE]

If this verse was talking about prostitutes in general, it likely would not have gone to the trouble to say "male." It does not need to mention female prostitutes, because extramarital sex is already covered in other verses.
__________________
Rachel D. is offline  
Old 07-23-2006, 08:27 PM   #50
ONE
love, blood, life
 
melon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 11,781
Local Time: 08:00 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Rachel D.
Oh, now you mention that they were men. What else have you neglected in your translations?
Cute. To be honest, I've made this argument repeatedly here in this FYM, where I have mentioned that they are male temple prostitutes dozens of times. In writing my explanation, I made an assumption that readers would understand that the temple prostitutes I was talking about were male. I'll make sure not to make that kind of assumption again in the company of religious fundamentalists.

Quote:
If this verse was talking about prostitutes in general, it likely would not have gone to the trouble to say "male." It does not need to mention female prostitutes, because extramarital sex is already covered in other verses.
It is presumed that they are male temple prostitutes, in keeping with knowledge of Greco-Roman temple cult practices. However, if you have ever studied a foreign language, you would understand that, in some languages, there are masculine and feminine forms of nouns, and if gender is unknown or if the group is a mixture of male and female, the singular or plural form will, by default, be a masculine noun.

The fact that you care whether or not it is a male temple prostitute or a female temple prostitute is because you're looking for a condemnation of homosexuality. However, I believe it is a condemnation of idolatry, with the gender of the prostitute being irrelevant. Again, if we are going to be literal, it is obviously not a condemnation of all same-sex acts. It is a condemnation of having sex with a male temple prostitute.

Melon
__________________
melon is offline  
Old 07-23-2006, 08:33 PM   #51
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Rachel D.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Under a Pile of Words
Posts: 5,839
Local Time: 07:00 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by melon


But that's besides the point. It's my argument that it was the idolatry that provoked that statement, not the same-sex act. If it was meant to be a sweeping condemnation of all homosexuality, then the writers of Leviticus were perfectly capable of doing that. However, they did not. I will remember not to lie with a temple prostitute the next time I travel to Asia Minor.

Melon
So now you're saying the verse is about idolatry? It was about prostitutes on the last page.
__________________
Rachel D. is offline  
Old 07-23-2006, 08:33 PM   #52
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,687
Local Time: 07:00 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Rachel D.
God created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve.
Are you serious? This is a completely weak and juvenile argument.

Yeah, Adam and Eve the shining light of morality. Commited the original sin, raised a murderous son, and then had incest to populate the world...

Since we're taking Genesis at face value.
__________________
BVS is online now  
Old 07-23-2006, 08:38 PM   #53
ONE
love, blood, life
 
melon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 11,781
Local Time: 08:00 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Rachel D.
So now you're saying the verse is about idolatry? It was about prostitutes on the last page.
Now you're just being obstinate. The previous verse in Leviticus states not to offer your children to Molech, a specific idolatrous practice common to the ancient Israelites.

The fact that the next verse forbids men to have sex with male temple prostitutes indicates that they made this condemnation out of their revulsion to this specific idolatrous practice common to the ancient Israelites.

If you're looking for a sweeping statement applicable to your life, I'm sorry. This is the same book that goes out of its way to forbid the mixing of two different fibers, so they have a habit of making very specific pronouncements in this book.

Melon
__________________
melon is offline  
Old 07-23-2006, 08:44 PM   #54
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Rachel D.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Under a Pile of Words
Posts: 5,839
Local Time: 07:00 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by melon


Cute. To be honest, I've made this argument repeatedly here in this FYM, where I have mentioned that they are male temple prostitutes dozens of times. In writing my explanation, I made an assumption that readers would understand that the temple prostitutes I was talking about were male. I'll make sure not to make that kind of assumption again in the company of religious fundamentalists.

Ooh, I'm a fundamentalist! It's funny how fundamentals are praised in other areas of life, but not in Christianity. God forbid you should believe the Bible as it is without twisting it.
__________________
Rachel D. is offline  
Old 07-23-2006, 08:47 PM   #55
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Rachel D.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Under a Pile of Words
Posts: 5,839
Local Time: 07:00 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Are you serious? This is a completely weak and juvenile argument.

Yeah, Adam and Eve the shining light of morality. Commited the original sin, raised a murderous son, and then had incest to populate the world...

Since we're taking Genesis at face value.
Who said it wasn't juvenile? The point is that humans were made males and females for a purpose and being gay goes against that.
__________________
Rachel D. is offline  
Old 07-23-2006, 08:49 PM   #56
ONE
love, blood, life
 
melon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 11,781
Local Time: 08:00 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Rachel D.
Ooh, I'm a fundamentalist! It's funny how fundamentals are praised in other areas of life, but not in Christianity. God forbid you should believe the Bible as it is without twisting it.
But that's the joke. Christian fundamentalists twist the Bible to extreme right-wing ends, and then have the arrogance to state that everyone else is wrong. I don't think you have the Bible right anymore than Muslim fundamentalists have the Koran right.

The funny thing is, I have stated repeatedly that I'm not interested in converting anyone here. I'm merely looking for acceptance that there are other Christian philosophies out there. But that's not enough for the Christian fundamentalist. They are threatened by the idea that someone else besides themselves might be right.

Melon
__________________
melon is offline  
Old 07-23-2006, 08:50 PM   #57
ONE
love, blood, life
 
melon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 11,781
Local Time: 08:00 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Rachel D.
Who said it wasn't juvenile? The point is that humans were made males and females for a purpose and being gay goes against that.
And homosexuals exist to prove that there's more to love than just having a penis and a vagina.

Melon
__________________
melon is offline  
Old 07-23-2006, 08:52 PM   #58
Offishul Kitteh Doctor
Forum Moderator
 
bonosloveslave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Taking care of kitties
Posts: 9,655
Local Time: 08:00 AM
I know the thread starter intended this to be about u2 and sexuality - but no one seems to care about the u2 aspect at this point. We'll let this go a bit longer, in FYM, if we can keep it civil.
__________________
bonosloveslave [at] interference.com
bonosloveslave is offline  
Old 07-23-2006, 08:53 PM   #59
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Rachel D.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Under a Pile of Words
Posts: 5,839
Local Time: 07:00 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by melon


Now you're just being obstinate. The previous verse in Leviticus states not to offer your children to Molech, a specific idolatrous practice common to the ancient Israelites.

The fact that the next verse forbids men to have sex with male temple prostitutes indicates that they made this condemnation out of their revulsion to this specific idolatrous practice common to the ancient Israelites.

If you're looking for a sweeping statement applicable to your life, I'm sorry. This is the same book that goes out of its way to forbid the mixing of two different fibers, so they have a habit of making very specific pronouncements in this book.

Melon
If it's OK for men to have sex with men who aren't male temple prostitutes, then does that mean that it's OK to sacrifice your children, as long as it's not to a pagan god? No, of course not. So does that mean that it's OK for a man to have sex with a man who isn't a prostitute? No.
__________________
Rachel D. is offline  
Old 07-23-2006, 08:53 PM   #60
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,687
Local Time: 07:00 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Rachel D.


Who said it wasn't juvenile? The point is that humans were made males and females for a purpose and being gay goes against that.
So our purpose is strictly procreation?
__________________

__________________
BVS is online now  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:00 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com