U.S. Forces Kill Seven Iraqi Women, Kids

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I?m not blaming the US Army. I?m blaming Saddam and Bush. The soldiers wouldn?t have been there if the US administration wouldn?t have enforced attacking Iraq.
 
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/

Family deaths at checkpoint fuel fury and mistrust
From Tim Reid in Washington

THE killing of up to ten Iraqi women and children by US troops at a checkpoint fuelled mutual mistrust between coalition forces and civilians yesterday as the official US version of events was contradicted by a journalist who witnessed the incident.
The deaths, at about 4.30pm on Monday near the central town of Najaf, came after American ground troops were ordered by Marine and army commanders to employ new, overtly aggressive tactics towards civilian Iraqi vehicles in response to a suicide car bomber who killed four US soldiers at a checkpoint on Saturday.

They dealt a terrible blow to US hopes of winning the hearts and minds of Iraqi civilians. The image of an increasingly suspicious and ruthless invading force operating on a hair trigger was reinforced yesterday when an unarmed driver speeding towards a military roadblock near the southern town of al-Shatrah was shot dead.

In Kuwait US soldiers shot and wounded the driver of a car that burst past a checkpoint near the Iraqi border. Kuwait said that the man had been an army captain running late for work.

According to US Central Command, based in Doha, Qatar, soldiers from the Army?s 3rd Infantry Division manning a checkpoint on Highway 9, near Najaf, were approached by a ?civilian vehicle?. They motioned for the vehicle to stop, but were ignored. The soldiers fired warning shots, which were also ignored, so shots were fired into the vehicle?s engine. It continued moving, so ?as a last resort, soldiers fired into the passenger compartment of the vehicle?. Seven occupants were killed, two were injured and four were unharmed, the statement said.

?In light of recent terrorist attacks by the Iraqi regime, the soldiers exercised considerable restraint to avoid unnecessary loss of life,? the statement concluded.

In a markedly different and detailed version of events, William Branigin, a reporter for The Washington Post embedded with the 3rd Infantry Division, described a blue, four-wheel-drive Toyota that came ?barrelling toward? the intersection checkpoint.

Captain Ronny Johnson, who was within earshot of Mr Branigin, radioed one of his forward platoons of M2 Bradley fighting vehicles to alert it to this potential threat.

?Fire a warning shot,? Captain Johnson was reported as saying. Then, ?with increasing urgency?, the report continues, ?he told the platoon to shoot a 7.62mm machinegun round into its radiator. ?Stop (messing) around!? Johnson was heard yelling.

Finally, according to Mr Branigin?s report, he shouted: ?Stop him, Red 1, stop him.? About six shots of 25mm canon fire were then heard from one of the Bradley vehicles.

As Captain Johnson peered at the vehicle through his binoculars, Mr Branigin reported, he shouted at the platoon leader: ?You just f****** killed a family because you didn?t fire a warning shot!? The report quoted officers as saying that 15 civilians were in the vehicle. Captain Johnson?s company reported that ten of them, including five children who appeared to be under five, were killed.

However, later in his report, Mr Branigin writes that several soldiers ?accepted the platoon leader?s explanation to Captain Johnson on the military radio that he had, in fact, fired two warning shots, but that the driver failed to stop?.

A spokesman for The Washington Post said that the newspaper stood by the report. ?Mr Branigin heard himself the radio transmission he reported.?

Yesterday, as US Central Command launched an investigation, it was clear that any inquiry will do nothing to quell Arab anger.

In Bahrain a front page headline of the Akhbar al-Khaleej newspaper read: ?Invaders commit massacre in al-Amin area . . . 26 martyred, including 11 children.? In Cairo a banner headline in the semi-official al-Gomhuria said: ?The invading force commits three ugly massacres in Baghdad and Najaf.?

The suicide bombing on Saturday has had a profound effect. Before the incident, Iraqi civilians drove through checkpoints routinely, chatting to US troops, often being handed sweets and rations.

On Monday, before the deaths at Najaf, US Marine Command issued new guidelines to troops to assume the worst and employ tougher tactics. Central Command emphasised that no new rules of engagement had been issued, but ?procedures might be varied?.

Now, drivers and passengers are being ordered out of vehicles with their hands raised. Any vehicle blocking traffic will be rolled over.

Civilians approaching checkpoints with their hands in their pockets will be shot if they fail to heed a warning. Barriers are being used to create chicanes at checkpoints.

Pentagon officials conceded yesterday that the new tactics risk alienating civilians further and killing even more of them. There is also a recognition that the suicide bombing has, for the Arab world, turned the war from a secular conflict into a holy war that resonates with the Palestinian cause. The new checkpoint procedures, modelled on Israeli tactics in the West Bank, will reinforce that image.

?Nothing will work better than the threat of suicide bombers to alienate the US and British forces from the local Iraqi population,? Yossi Alpher, an Israeli analyst, said. ?They will have no alternative but to view everyone above 14, every vehicle, even every animal such as donkeys, as a potential suicide bomb.?
 
So according to the Post story, he bases the story on radio transmissions but saw the car "barreling toward" the intersection. So did he see the actually shooting if he saw the car going toward the checkpoint? If he didn't see the shooting is he basing the whole story on a radio transmission? And if there were "about six shots" how come ten people are dead? I'm sure this journalist has every intention of being accurate but there are holes in this story.

As for the tires, have you seen all those stupid car chase tv shows? It doesn't matter if the tires are gone, you can still drive. And if your intent is to blow up soldiers, you will drive for that purpose with or without tires.
 
What if you were in this bus, sharky? Would you like a bullet in your head, just for the assumption you could be a suicide bomber? Is it right for U.S. soldiers to take this right?

And what if I was one of the soldiers? Would I take the right?
 
sharky: I wasn't there so i can't answer most of your questions, but in a overcrowded car i assure you that you can kill 10 people with 6 bullets - completely without jfk-like "magic bullets"

Somewhere i heared that the US military will use arabic signs to tell them to stop, if that's true they didn't use them yet and expect that the average Iraqi citizen can read english well. If you remember the fact that more than the half of all schools were destroyed in Iraq war 1 and even pencils were not allowed to be imported into iraq because they are "dual use"...

Anyway, we can only speculate because most of the crimes which will hapen will never be clarified.

Klaus
 
Just thot I would mention this paragraph from an editorial discussing this tragedy.

For soldiers, trained in the language and practice of war, a checkpoint is a place where those who approach with innocent intent know they must stop; only those with malign intent will ignore them. For those same civilians, however, unversed in combat, fleeing for their lives and doubtless terrified, a foreign military checkpoint is an unwelcome and alien obstacle. Misunderstandings are inevitable and, in conditions of war, so are fatalities.
 
sulawesigirl4 said:


with malign intent will ignore them. (correct):up:




For those same civilians, however, unversed in combat, fleeing for their lives and doubtless terrified, a foreign military checkpoint is an unwelcome and alien obstacle. Misunderstandings are inevitable and, in conditions of war, so are fatalities..(not correct):down:.
:


In a more recent and similar incident, how can you NOW blame these soilders?

OPERATION: IRAQI FREEDOM
Suicide bombers'
last words on TV
'I swear to Allah to sacrifice myself in jihad against infidel Americans'

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: April 4, 2003
5:00 p.m. Eastern




Two Iraqi women who killed five people, including three U.S. soldiers, in a suicide bomb attack near Baghdad swore their allegiance to Allah in a videotape broadcast today on Al-Jazeera television, Reuters reported.

"I swear to Allah to sacrifice myself in jihad [holy war] against infidel Americans, British and Israelis to defend my country's beloved soil," said one of the women as she held a rifle and placed her other hand on the Muslim holy book Quran.

Another woman recited verses from the Quran as she stood in front of an Iraqi flag, vowing, "I swear to Allah ... that I will defend Iraq and take revenge from the people's enemies, the Americans, imperialists, Zionists, reactionaries and Arab defeatists."

"You will be proud of your sisters; history will be proud of them," she said, without referring to the mission they planned to carry out.

Iraqi media said the two women carried out the suicide bombing last night at a checkpoint northwest of Baghdad, Al-Jazeera reported.

U.S. Central Command said today that three soldiers, a pregnant woman and the driver were killed in an attack about 11 miles southwest of the Haditha Dam, northwest of Baghdad and about 80 miles east of the Syrian border.

"These are not military actions. These are terrorist actions," said Brig. Gen. Vincent Brooks, Central Command deputy director of operations.

"A pregnant female stepped out of the vehicle and began screaming in fear," a Central Command statement said. "At this point the civilian vehicle exploded, killing three coalition force members who were approaching the vehicle and wounding two others."

If confirmed, it would be the second suicide attack since the war began. Last Saturday, four U.S. soldiers died in a car bomb at a checkpoint near Najaf in central Iraq. As many as 3,000 Arab volunteers for suicide missions against U.S.-led forces have arrived in the country in recent weeks, Iraqi officials claim


Truth reveals itself at the end of the day...:larry:


DB9
 
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diamond said:
:Truth reveals itself at the end of the day...:larry:

DB9
What do mean by that? No one disputed this story, did they? This is not the story that we were discussing originally, so I don't know what you mean. The other incident, involving the killing of 7 women and some children, has not been shown to be a suicide bombing, has it? Did I miss something?
 
Michael Griffiths said:

What do mean by that? No one disputed this story, did they? This is not the story that we were discussing originally, so I don't know what you mean. The other incident, involving the killing of 7 women and some children, has not been shown to be a suicide bombing, has it? Did I miss something?

(edited my preceding post....)


Other than the children in the van, I do not think these ppl were in the orig story were quite the "hapless victims"

DB9:larry:
 
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Michael Griffiths said:

Ah, another case of pure speculation then. Thanks for clarifying.
Pure speculation? Not exactly. A popular Shiite cleric said he actually saw the people forced into the car, and the driver was under duress - his family had been threatened if he did not commit the act.
 
diamond:

Saddam tries to force the US to start a "dirty war" with lots of "colateral damage" it's his only chance to survive.

But.. as they didn't find explosives in the first vehicle and even the US military said that they have done mistakes shows that they did something wrong when they killed seven iraqi women and kids.
You can't justify that because there are sucide bombers. back to one of my first posts in this thread:

"I'm affraid the US troops aren't trained for situations like these.
This is not a fault of the soldiers, they don't decide themself how they get prepared for a guerillia war like this one.

Klaus
 
80sU2isBest said:

Pure speculation? Not exactly. A popular Shiite cleric said he actually saw the people forced into the car, and the driver was under duress - his family had been threatened if he did not commit the act.

I too saw this.
 
Umm..no....I was refering to the report of the Cleric who says the people were forced into the van.

Sorry.
 
80sU2isBest said:

Pure speculation? Not exactly. A popular Shiite cleric said he actually saw the people forced into the car, and the driver was under duress - his family had been threatened if he did not commit the act.
Diamond's post was pure speculation. He made no reference to the Shiite cleric's story. Therefore, your defense doesn't deny my statement. It only adds crediblity to Diamond's conclusion, but in order to show that his conclusion wasn't based on pure speculation, Diamond would have had to have used such information in the premises of that conclusion, which he did not do.
 
I really feel for the people who died in that roadblock incident. I also feel that the military did the right thing in firing on the van given the circumstances. According to all reports there are signs all over the place there telling people that they must stop or else. They didn't stop even in spite of warning shots. How were the soldiers supposed to know it wasn't a car bomb again? Aslo according to reports, the driver(?) was forced to drive through the roadblock at threat of his family's lives. People shouldn't be getting angry at the soldiers for it. For those that are angry, can you honestly say that you would not have fired under the same circumstances?
Imagine how the soldiers that had to do that feel about it. I pray that they deal with it ok and that they don't have to do it again.
 
U2luv:

at the time of the accident there were no arabic signs and a military man said that the warning shot was too late.

I'm not angry at the soldiers, it's not their fault. They are neither trained nor equiped for these situations.

" Imagine how the soldiers that had to do that feel about it. I pray that they deal with it ok and that they don't have to do it again."

right i felt verry sad for him when i read the words of his boss:
"...he roared at the platoon leader, "You just [expletive] killed a family because you didn't fire a warning shot soon enough!""

Klaus
 
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Basic math usually came easy for me as a child.
This is very much like adding 2+2.

No offense Michael and Klaus..
but will you fellas please just
"Do the math"?:sexywink:

thank u
DB9
 
diamond said:
Basic math usually came easy for me as a child.
This is very much like adding 2+2.

No offense Michael and Klaus..
but will you fellas please just
"Do the math"?:sexywink:

thank u
DB9
Ah, if the world was only as black and white as adding 2+2, how simple it would all be - hey Diamond?
 
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U2luv said:
I really feel for the people who died in that roadblock incident. I also feel that the military did the right thing in firing on the van given the circumstances. According to all reports there are signs all over the place there telling people that they must stop or else. They didn't stop even in spite of warning shots. How were the soldiers supposed to know it wasn't a car bomb again? Aslo according to reports, the driver(?) was forced to drive through the roadblock at threat of his family's lives. People shouldn't be getting angry at the soldiers for it. For those that are angry, can you honestly say that you would not have fired under the same circumstances?
Imagine how the soldiers that had to do that feel about it. I pray that they deal with it ok and that they don't have to do it again.

agreed..how many of us have been in combat and really udnerstand what these troops are going through....no one seems to blame the iraqi regime for trying to up their own civilian casualty count in order to villify the US
 
Arun V:
I thought that was obvious and comon sense that it's a warcrime what the Iraqi government does

But i'm still surprised that it's enough for some here that Bush is less evil than Saddam. I'm sorry, i have higher expectations to the US President

Klaus
 
Klaus said:
Arun V:
I thought that was obvious and comon sense that it's a warcrime what the Iraqi government does

But i'm still surprised that it's enough for some here that Bush is less evil than Saddam. I'm sorry, i have higher expectations to the US President

Klaus


well klaus I seem to see a lot of iraqi casualties on arab news sites...but almost no mention of the fact that the iraqi regime caused most of them. That's why the thought was in my mind


As for the "Evil" debate. I guess we'll have to see the discoveries made in the war ( chem weapons, terror camps, potential mass graves) before we lay a judgement down.


One thing I admire about you klaus is that your not frustrated at the Administration for the sake of being anti american..your frustrated because you feel a connection to the US government.I respect that point of view deeply.
 
Today on the Russian TV I saw a report from Baghdad. Im not going to tell you what amazing contrast it is to CNN (not to mention Fox..). Just one picture of an Iraqi man holding in his arms a 3-year girl with a wound in her leg. Her parents were killed as well as all the relatives of the man in one of the endless bombardments. He was the only survivor in his family and she was the only survivor in the family that lived next door. He was not crying, he was not wailing, he was not cursing...he was holding her silent, standing in the ruins of his house, only tears in his eyes...
 
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