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Old 12-06-2003, 10:17 PM   #1
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U.S and Facisim

Do any other folks out there that the U.S is headed towards a facist state. Seemingly in Canada we are not all that far behind either.. scary thought .


Take a look at characteristics of fascism

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs,
2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need."
3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The
people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to
eliminate a perceived common threat or foe
4.Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military
service are glamorized.
5.Obsession with National Security - Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.
6.Religion and Government are Intertwined - Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders,
7. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business
aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the
government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial
business/government relationship and power elite
8.Labor Power is Suppressed - Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed
9. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to
protect their friends from accountability
10.Fraudulent Elections - Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections

Anything ring a bell!!
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Old 12-06-2003, 10:40 PM   #2
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Re: U.S and Facisim

Quote:
Originally posted by Katey
Do any other folks out there that the U.S is headed towards a facist state. Seemingly in Canada we are not all that far behind either.. scary thought .


Take a look at characteristics of fascism

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs,
2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need."
3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The
people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to
eliminate a perceived common threat or foe
4.Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military
service are glamorized.
5.Obsession with National Security - Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.
6.Religion and Government are Intertwined - Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders,
7. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business
aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the
government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial
business/government relationship and power elite
8.Labor Power is Suppressed - Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed
9. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to
protect their friends from accountability
10.Fraudulent Elections - Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections

Anything ring a bell!!
Almost nothing here rings a bell with respect to Canada.

1. Huh?? If you're thinking about Roots Canada clothing and a couple of beer commercials, that's really reaching.

2. A couple of isolated cases can be argued here.

3. Really untrue today (the last thing I can think of is internment of Japanese Canadians and that was 60 years ago).

4. Completely false.

5. Completely false.

6. Could not be more false.

7. No more than in any capitalist driven country.

8. False again.

9. Some cronyism present, sure.

10. Again, completely untrue.
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Old 12-06-2003, 11:20 PM   #3
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Re: U.S and Facisim

Quote:
Originally posted by Katey
Anything ring a bell!!
No...care to give examples.......and I am sure we will have a nice debate.

And welcome to the forum.
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Old 12-06-2003, 11:38 PM   #4
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First off I said we are staring to follow in the footsteps of the US, not that we fit into all of the 10 points.. nor does the US. It was just an example of where we could be headed.. the same example many economists will provide you with. Secondly I didnít mean facisim oohh no here comes another Stalin I meant facisim as in the definition of the word related to the economy.

Here are some points to ponder

# 4 . Paul Martin will dramatically increase defence spending and is putting it on the highest priority list. He is quoted as saying the U.S military style would be a good fit for Canada. He will poor more money into the Military and continue to cut health care. Martin is responsible for the reform of unemployment insurance, the elimination of national standards for social assistance, and giant cuts to
federal spending on health and education slowly creating the elimination of healthcare. That is how he slashed the Canadian deficit

#5 not obsession per say yet but look at our newly created Homeland Security.
Martin has said as newly crowned Prime Minister he will very likely try to move fast to establish a perimeter border. Moreover, in response to corporate interests on both sides of the border, he will likely soon introduce legislation removing all limits on foreign ownership of the television cable and telephone industries, a move that will further weaken an already fragile indigenous culture

#7 Do not forget Paul Martin was and is a big business man he was trained by Paul Desmarris of Power Corp who is one of the most powerful men in Canada . It is said that Desmari convinced Brian Mulroney that Free Trade was a good through a 5 minute conversation on the street. Even Jean Chretian admitted not making big decisions without conulslting him. Clearly for Martin, the main business of government is facilitating business.

#8 Oh how wrong you are Ė this does hold some truth . if you take an in depth look at Labour Unions or talk to the representatives about where they are headed.
Paul Martin's well-known reputation as a union buster in
the shipping industry and potential conflicts of interest stemming from his
intimate and long-held ties with many of Canada's corporate elite will play a big factor

#9 Be watching the news for updates on Paul Martins Cabinet and the comings and goings. P.S how do you think Paul Martin got the job

#10 How do you think Paul Martin got the job


I am a proud Canadian proud of our country and our indivuality.
This is not meant to bad mouth Canada or the US just to bring forth some points .

Vive le Canada
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Old 12-06-2003, 11:40 PM   #5
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p.s my apologies if I offended you.. and my apologies for not being able to spell tonight!!
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Old 12-06-2003, 11:53 PM   #6
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Paul Martin is one man.

Paul Martin is too centrist to be Liberal and (IMO) this may hurt him in the long run. Ontario is a good example of what happens to right wing governments. They can follow the US model for a few years and then the people knock them on their ass because it is simply not representative of the views here.

The Canadian Military needs increased spending. I am not a fan of military spending myself, but the sad truth of the matter is that a number of the equipment and machinery that are currently in use are outdated and that puts Canadian troops at risk. I don't want these people who have devoted their lives to defense of their country and to peacekeeping (let's not forget that nearly all of Canada's overseas deployment is in some sort of peacekeeping efforts) to be flying around in helicopters that aren't even fit for use in Eastern Europe, much less in Canada. Therefore, I agree with increased military spending in this instance, although not necessarily always in principle.

As for slashing health care at the expense of the military, that remains to be seen and is a moot point at the moment. The Canadian public is not interested in decreased health care spending, and if you disagree, ask Ernie Eves where the decreased health care spending got him and the PC party in Ontario. In the shitter.

Yes, Paul Martin is a businessman. I will not vote for him, I will vote for the NDP. But I think you put entirely too much stock in this one man. He is not the be all and end all of Canadian politics. We are not like the USA where the president is almost a mythical creature. We throw pies in the faces of Prime Ministers and send them packing. Paul Martin isn't Canada, and I am 99% sure that if he follows a business-first approach, he will be on his ass after the first term. Why? Because Ontario controls the vote and Ontario has just firmly shown what they will and won't tolerate by embarassing the Conservative party into a shameful defeat. They followed this up by having Toronto elect a leftist (NDP) almost socialist-leaning mayor.

Paul Martin will have to tread lightly. He doesn't yield the sort of power his arrogant supporters believe he does. He is just a man. In the words of Joe Strummer, "Without people, you're nothing."
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Old 12-06-2003, 11:56 PM   #7
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And welcome to the board! Always nice to see the great white north represented.
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Old 12-07-2003, 12:07 AM   #8
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Hey Dreadsox


Fascist countries project that they are in a permanent or long-term state of war. (Example: We are in an endless war on terrorism.) Fascist countries invade other countries without provocation. (Example: pre-emptive war against Iraq.)

Fascist countries violate their own treaties and international law. (Example: violation of the United Nations Charter by waging war against Iraq without UN approval.)
Fascism is characterized by single-party rule, the destruction or transformation of the two-party system. (Examples: Colorado Gov. Bill Owens abolished the Colorado 2004 primary election; illegal attempts at redistricting driven by the White House; monetary corruption of the system resulting in voter apathy.)
Fascist governments project an ideology that they are "right." (Example: President Bush, "I am right and I know I am right and history will prove me right.")
Fascist governments demand unquestioning support otherwise you are a traitor. (Example: President Bush's statement, "You are either with us or against us.")
Fascism is characterized by using torture, concentration camps and having major prison populations. (Examples: Guantanamo concentration camp; the FBI's description of how it "breaks" suspects with heat, cold, sound and sleep deprivation. The United States has the highest percentage of citizenry in prisons of any country in the world.)
Fascism is characterized by parallelism between the state and corporations. (Examples: Government and corporate overlap in certain industries oil, energy, military contractors and the media; massive corporate donations to both parties to assure connivance.)
Fascism promotes conservative views of arts, literature, family culture, family planning and morals. (Examples: attacks on and decreased funding for National Public Radio, the Public Broadcasting System, the National Endowment for the Arts, any institution promoting family planning; school vouchers as the beginning of class-based private education and the destruction of the public education system; passing financial responsibility for Head Start to states that are near bankruptcy.)

Fascism takes religious symbolism and transfers the emotional and moral appeal to state symbols. (Examples: Aggressive and ostentatious God Bless America signs; the attempt to make the Pledge of Allegiance mandatory in Colorado schools; ostentatious flag waving and display; destruction of constitutional separation of church and state.)



Take a look at the Patriot Act
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Old 12-07-2003, 12:21 AM   #9
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Ohh believe me I was using Paul Martin as an example. I am not putting all that much stock in him and I do believe he will stay true to some of his words. Right know Paul Martin has a high approval rating among voters. Yes you need the people but lets look at the voter statistics which is around 50% maybe of the general public. Now look at the percentage of Corporate Canada that votes which is about 80 -85% currently. Why because Corporate Canada knows they control the politicians when they control the vote. Paul Martin is a friend to corporate Canada.
Paul Martin will be the most right wing leader ever of the Liberal Party.

Let's hope we get lots of responsible voters out. The Liberal party will be a hard one to dethrown . I hope Paul Martin suprises me.. and yes he had better tread lightly .

Paul Martin is not the be all and end all but he is the current head of the Liberal party which continues to get stronger.

P.S i am very happy for the new Mayor in T.O, i am hoping actully that NDP will be the official opposition next election
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Old 12-07-2003, 12:28 AM   #10
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I think some folks are getting a little paranoid.
The U.S. does not equal facism.
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Old 12-07-2003, 01:08 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by Katey
Fascist countries project that they are in a permanent or long-term state of war. (Example: We are in an endless war on terrorism.) [/B]
has a representative of Al-Qaeda announced that they are not going to attack the United States. The last message from Osama braodcast recently said that they were planning something bigger than 9-11 on US soil. Just today the threat level was raised inside of Saudi Arabia was raised. Unfortunately to ignore the fact that for 10 years the United States has been attacked by this organization led to a lot of death an destruction. This started with the original Trade Tower attack. The war was declared long before we acknoweldged it.


[Q]Fascist countries invade other countries without provocation. (Example: pre-emptive war against Iraq.)[/Q]

Sorry, but Iraq invaded three other countries and failed to meet its obligations under the surrender. I do not wish to turn this into a debate on UN resolutions however, there were many resolutions something like 17 chances I believe that Iraq did not live up to, hardly without provovation.

[Q]Fascist countries violate their own treaties and international law. (Example: violation of the United Nations Charter by waging war against Iraq without UN approval.)[/Q]

Unfortunately Resolution 1483 and now two resolutions after the war seem to recognize that this was not an illegal war. The last two resolutions have been passed unanimously with one abstention from Syria on one vote I believe. There have been no resolutions introduced at the security council to myu knowledge which would indicate that this was an illegal war in violation of the United Nations Charter.

[Q]Fascism is characterized by single-party rule, the destruction or transformation of the two-party system. (Examples: Colorado Gov. Bill Owens abolished the Colorado 2004 primary election; illegal attempts at redistricting driven by the White House; monetary corruption of the system resulting in voter apathy.)[/Q]

I am not 100% familiar with the situation with Colorado, however if memory serves me correct, that is a situation where the state budget cannot afford to run a primary.

The White House is not responsible to my knoweldge for redistricting. This is up to the states. It happens in every state. In my state of Massachusetts, the Democrats do it in their favor, in states where Republicans are in control, they work it in their favor, that is called politics.

Money is not the reason for voter apathy in my opinion.

[Q]Fascist governments project an ideology that they are "right." (Example: President Bush, "I am right and I know I am right and history will prove me right.")[/Q]

Hard to be a facist governement when your term is up possibly in less than a year, and is restricted by a term limit.

[Q]Fascist governments demand unquestioning support otherwise you are a traitor. (Example: President Bush's statement, "You are either with us or against us.")[/Q]

That was not directed at citizens. It was at the nations of the world, and I think specifically at countries that were harboring terrorists, if my recolection of the speech is correct. i will try and find it.

[Q]Fascism is characterized by using torture, concentration camps and having major prison populations. (Examples: Guantanamo concentration camp; the FBI's description of how it "breaks" suspects with heat, cold, sound and sleep deprivation. The United States has the highest percentage of citizenry in prisons of any country in the world.)[/Q]

Guantanimo is not a concentration camp. They have been held there in accordance with the Geneva conventions.

If the people who were in the US prisons had not broken US laws then they would not be in the prisons. That does not make the US a facist state. Unless you have some evidence that they are political prisoners.

[Q]Fascism is characterized by parallelism between the state and corporations. (Examples: Government and corporate overlap in certain industries oil, energy, military contractors and the media; massive corporate donations to both parties to assure connivance.)[/Q]

I might buy this....but Facist? Kennedy was known as a Facist when he dictated the steel prices to the steel industry and blackmailed the executives by using the FBI and IRS to investigate them. LOL But that was to get the economy going in the right direction.

[Q]Fascism promotes conservative views of arts, literature, family culture, family planning and morals. (Examples: attacks on and decreased funding for National Public Radio, the Public Broadcasting System, the National Endowment for the Arts, any institution promoting family planning; school vouchers as the beginning of class-based private education and the destruction of the public education system; passing financial responsibility for Head Start to states that are near bankruptcy.)[/Q]

I totally 100% disagree. My money should not be collected from me to pay for a governement funded radio, art program, or family planning.

If school systems are determined to be FAILING schools then parents should have the right to send their children to schools that are providing a decent opportunity for education for their children.

A governement radio station paid for by my money sounds FACIST to me.

[Q]Fascism takes religious symbolism and transfers the emotional and moral appeal to state symbols. (Examples: Aggressive and ostentatious God Bless America signs; the attempt to make the Pledge of Allegiance mandatory in Colorado schools; ostentatious flag waving and display; destruction of constitutional separation of church and state.) [/Q]

If people want to put up God Bless America signs we have the FREEDOM to do so. The government has not forced us to do so.

We say the Pledge of Allegiance every day in my school. I have had student not say it. No big deal.....

We have the freedom to display our flags. We have the freedom not to. The governement has not forced us to. No laws have been pushed on us to do so or not to.

I have no clue what you see as the destruction of the separation of Church and State.


[Q]Take a look at the Patriot Act [/Q]

I have. I supported it. It has limits on it..it is up for renewal next year I believe. I probably will support it again. No one I know of has been effected by it. Guess what, it is probably because we are not terrorists doing bad things.
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Old 12-07-2003, 09:32 AM   #12
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okay but I think you are taking facisim and it's part in the US to literally which is not what i meant it for.

Many and I do mean many economists may well tell you the same thing.

Many of the points you agreed with or redirected ar also somewhat of example if you notice.

Now I am not saying they are not needed considering events of late I am not in that position or have near the knowledge to judge that I am making a parralel..

By the way I supported U.S led war in Iraq.

I am saying they are representitive of facisim ideas.Whether that is good or bad I am not a US citizen so I don't hold a vote

No not being paranoid .. .. just have me eyes wide open thanks. re-read the definition of facisim if you must from an economical persprective then go back and look at similar trends in some parts of Europe over history. The good news is you have someone like George Bush as president

Interesting insights if you watch the BBC, CBC you will see too excellent run stations by the way. Without government support of art and culture may things would die

as for the Patriot act well I can't say for sure that was not needed. And gee am I happy no one you know has been effected but.. others have and will it is bound to happen. The fact that the Patriot act has to be is a sad fact in the United States and just the name scares me. Again I would tell you to go back in history.
I amnot here to say right or wrong just to say these are parrallels to things of the past.

P.s why is your senate taking holidays when it could be passing a legislation that could save thousands of lives in Africa???

Cheers
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Old 12-07-2003, 10:53 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by Katey

By the way I supported U.S led war in Iraq.
You should never admit that in here....LOL

As for our Senate.....

They take WAY too many vacations.
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Old 12-07-2003, 11:01 AM   #14
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ha!! ya I know.. my downfall I am rarely afraid to say anything part of the irish in me.
I should clairfy a little I more supported the troops .. not the reason. I was extremely happy at Canada's decision to stay out of it
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Old 12-07-2003, 11:03 AM   #15
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Corperate control of government is nothing new, been going on in every capitalist representative democracy since the beginning. Not good and limits democracy to a tremendous extent. Been getting worse in recent years though.

One party rule in Canada by the Liberal Party is nothing new. There was the Mackenzie King government of 1921-26, 1926-30 and 1935-48. That's 22 years of Liberal rule under one leader out of 27. Then there were the Trudeau years 1968-79 and 1979-84. In the provinces long term governments are also highly common through out history. Not a good thing but hardly something new.

The Liberals have held the reins of government for the vast majority of Canadia n history for the simple reason that they've been able to move left and right to where the majority of voters are, just right of centre to a bit more than slightly left of centre. They're well organized and ordered, thus they hold the vote. And no matter what line of garbage the new consrvative party tries to seel this si going to be another solid Liberal majority as even with the merger teh Liberals will remain the only truly national party. Don't bet on the new party picking up any seats in Quebec or teh Maritimes. My bet is that almost all of the Tory MPs with seats there will be independents pretty soon. Though I will be voting NDP there's no way they're getting official opposition stauts this decade or the next. Their glory years are long gone. Years of bad (and even worse) forgettable leadership and lack of a definative stance have gutted the party. It'll be another election at least before they get any significant number of seats. Martin takes this election easily.

However he won't be able to be as high handed as some peopel think. He's already campaigning on a more open democratic model than Cretien. Second the Premiers have locked arms and are now acting together for the first time in years. And with Liberals in the two big provinces of Ontario and Quebec, Martin can't just tell them to **** off.
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