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Old 01-04-2004, 03:05 PM   #1
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Trust?

I am a cynic and am very skeptical about a lot of things I hear, due to where I live and the school I went to I only knew about one religion: Catholicism, religion isn't something that is disucssed openly here so I never hear other people's views on their own religion.

Since I have left school I have met a lot of Christians and people who seem to spend all their time preaching to me about how God doesn't agree with things I do like drinking, going to discos, bars etc...I don't have a problem with people of a different religion all my friends are Protestants but I do have a problem with people ramming their religion down my throat and I am always amazed that everything they talk to me about is God.

How can you put all your faith in the fact that God exists? I am not saying I don't think he exists but I don't know how someone can put all their faith in the fact God wants us to lead our lives a certain way to please him when he might not exist and I always thought we had our own choices? Thats what I learnt anyway

Sorry if this makes no sense.
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Old 01-04-2004, 04:10 PM   #2
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Sure it makes sense.. I grew up in a split catholic/protesant home but was raised very catholic.. Since then thought I certainly don't follow any organized religion.. I think there are to many thing wrong with the state of the church to put much faith in God being represented by it .

I have though never lost my faith in God just church , my thought is that God dosent want us to help him or work to please him .. he wants us to help each other thats how I see it but it is my view .. certainly God does not need my help .. thats my personal view on it . I try and live my life aline with what God does.. but I am far off from considering my self and example of a good christian life.

I think there is a big differnce between the message the scriptures provide us with and the message through any church or religion taken to literally to fit their image. Sometimes the church I think can be responsible for what is wrong with people's perception of what faith is.

As for our own choices.. indeed we have that: it is free will .. As Johnny Cash said you have a choice everyday .. you either choose love or you choose to hate, I think every other choice we make is based around that.. Johnny choose love it didnt mean he never stopped wrestling with his demons ..
Basically in the end there is only one who will judge me .. that is God .. so my faith is a pact between he and I not what anyone else tells me it should be.
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Old 01-04-2004, 04:29 PM   #3
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I don't really have much of a religous background as my family dont go to church (thats more of a safety issue though) but I still think I can lead a good life and show respect and compassion to others. I jsut dont think I could preach about God all the time incase he didnt exist
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Old 01-04-2004, 08:40 PM   #4
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Ya .. you don't have to believe that God exists to be a great person and be moral .

For me.. I have faith God exists , I will never have the proof that he does or doesnt.. but thats what faith is belief in something without proof I guess.

Having religion believing in god, going to church .. none of that alone makes you a good person .. it is just like you said .. if you show compassion and respect then you are way further ahead then some of the hypocritical people who don't have any of that but preach about God go to church and think that will save them.

most importantly it's what is in your heart .. and your soul that defines us.. not our religious beliefs
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Old 01-29-2004, 03:03 PM   #5
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Hi all,
I'm new to this entire interference and came across this conversation. I am a Christian and feel I may have some things to add here. Some of what I say will be what I believe, but please don't take it as force feeding you my religion. So, here goes.

Lara Mullen- I apologize for Christians shoving their religion down your throught. I live with some guys who also enjoy going to bars, not so much dance clubs but parties at times. Some are even sexually active. But I refuse to force feed them my beliefs. Anyway, your question "How can you put all your faith in the fact that God exists?" This is what faith is. Believing with all your heart that God does exist, and when you have this faith, you believe he wants you to lead a life as image bearers of him. The beauty is God does give us a choice. If you truely believe that God would be pleased with your decisions, then don't listen to what others say.

Katey- Basically in the end there is only one who will judge me .. that is God .. so my faith is a pact between he and I not what anyone else tells me it should be. Amen. People who judge you are in the wrong. My only problem is your view of church. I'm sorry for the way churches portray themselves to you. I hate all the fighting and turmoil b/t churches. If we are all worshiping the same God, what's the big deal. To me, church is not a building, rather it is a body of believers who help us along in our spiritual journey. I don't doubt your belief in God. Keep that relationship with him, and listen to where he leads.

You're both right that you don't have to be a Christian, or follower of God to be moral. HOwever, here is my stand, take what you will. To be saved as a Christian, you need to believe two things. Oe, Jesus died on the cross and saves you and I. Two, we can and should have a relationship with God. That's where it all starts. He listens, he speaks to us, he wants to have a relationship with us. Anyway, if you want to reply at all, feel free and I'll hear what you have to say.
thanks for your time and peace,
phil
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Old 01-29-2004, 04:09 PM   #6
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Re: Trust?

Quote:
Originally posted by Lara Mullen
How can you put all your faith in the fact that God exists? I am not saying I don't think he exists but I don't know how someone can put all their faith in the fact God wants us to lead our lives a certain way to please him when he might not exist and I always thought we had our own choices? Thats what I learnt anyway
The way I see, faith IS just trusting that God exists. That's a big part of what the word faith means to me. If you knew all the answers, you wouldn't need faith, b/c you'd know. Also, if you look around, think of all the things in this world, and all the miracles that have happened, how can a God NOT exist? This is what I tell myself when I'm in a doubting mood.

Now, about choices. With what you said about having fun drinking and hanging out at bars and such, I'm a Christian (not a Catholic one either) and I don't have a problem with that, as long as you're not getting trashed and putting yourself in situation where you can't have control and would make a bad choice, like getting smashed and passing out and getting raped, or getting stoned and having sex, or driving around putting others' lives in danger. I don't mind drinking, dancing, bars, discos, etc as long as you know where to draw the line between fun and stupidity.

But then again, we all sin and so do I so what right do I have to say people can't do this or that?

I also like to step back and consider a perspective like yours, pretend there was no religion and God did not exist. I think I'd make the same choices I do today b/c sometimes it's just common sense. I don't have premarrital sex, partly because religion says it's a sin, but mostly because I don't want the responsibility of protecting myself against STD and pregnancy. Same with drinking: I don't drink because it's against the law because of my age, you can have just a much fun without it, and all it does is highten the risk of being in situations where I can get raped, make a bad choice and end up knocked up or killing someone in an accident, etc, etc. For me, there can be a lot of parallels between religious values and simple common sense.
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Old 01-29-2004, 11:57 PM   #7
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I could always attempt some form of a proof of God's existence if anyone's interested ... I'm right into theological stuff.
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Old 01-30-2004, 02:44 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by Axver
I could always attempt some form of a proof of God's existence if anyone's interested ... I'm right into theological stuff.
shoot.......
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Old 01-30-2004, 02:47 AM   #9
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Please, by all means!
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Old 01-30-2004, 03:06 PM   #10
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Re: Trust?

Quote:
Originally posted by Lara Mullen
I am not saying I don't think he exists but I don't know how someone can put all their faith in the fact God wants us to lead our lives a certain way to please him when he might not exist and I always thought we had our own choices? Thats what I learnt anyway
As mentioned above, faith is believing in what is not seen. Now, how do you live your life? It can boil down to two things: (1) your personal relationship with Christ and (2) how Christ speaks to you through the Word.

I am sorry that you have run in to people who feel they need to do the speaking on point 2. God speaks quietly, we need to be quiet to hear Him.
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Old 01-31-2004, 02:40 AM   #11
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Re: Re: Trust?

Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader

God speaks quietly, we need to be quiet to hear Him.




AMEN!
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Old 01-31-2004, 07:13 PM   #12
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Re: Re: Trust?

Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
God speaks quietly, we need to be quiet to hear Him.
So true.
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Old 02-03-2004, 06:03 AM   #13
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Sorry I've taken a while ... I don't come to this particular forum enough. In regards to my proof, this is simply copied from another forum. There was a challenge to prove atheism false, and what follows is my reply. It currently remains unrebutted on that forum and I'd like to hear what people here have to say. There will be a second part where I attempt to prove that the god(s) that has/have to be in existence is the God of the Bible, but school's really getting in my way. Note also that I'm a former atheist.

Hope someone finds this interesting or helpful.

"The matter that formed the Big Bang had to come from somewhere, and atheistic evolution simply has no answers for that. According to it, there is no way known that the matter that exploded in the Big Bang could have formed the universe, and if the atheist answers that the universe is eternal, then that's simply rebutted by the fact that his own science says it's going to end some day, so it can't be eternal. HOWEVER, even if we were to accept that this matter, defying all the laws of science, somehow popped into existence most randomly and then for some reason exploded and this explosion, instead of causing destruction, caused an order so perfect that it provided an allowance for life to be sustainable on this planet, even if we allow all that, it's still not possible. At some point, inanimate matter has to become animate for atheistic evolution to work, and that's just not possible. Leave some dirt in a box, come back to it in a million years, and it'll still be dirt. Leave computer parts in a room, come back in a billion years, and they won't have formed a computer running the latest version of Windows; they'll still be lying around where you left them. Atheistic evolution defies the laws of science that scientists who promote it happen to support and have proved. It's just not possible. Without atheistic evolution, atheism is not viable because it cannot provide any explanation for the existence of human life. The belief in atheistic evolution is a core tenet of the atheistic faith, and with it proved wrong, the column that holds it up is missing and atheism collapses in a heap as one great big failure."

Hence, from that, it can be seen that for life to exist, a god or gods is/are required.
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Old 02-03-2004, 11:58 AM   #14
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And also, Descartes, of course:


1) I think, therefore I am.

2) I cannot be mistaken about the ideas that I have.

3) There can never be more objective reality in the effect (i.e., the idea) than there is formal reality in the cause (i.e., object of the idea).

4) I have an idea of perfection or infinite substance.

5) My idea of perfection is the most objectively real idea that I have.

6) The only possible formal cause of that idea is infinite substance.


Therefore, God must exist.


Explication of premises:

Premises 1 and 2 are incorrigible. That is, they cannot be doubted. Premise number 3 rests upon the principle of sufficient reason. It points out that any cause must have at least as much reality as any effect that it has. If it did not, then the cause would not be sufficient to produce the effect. Another way of saying this is that it is impossible to derive the more perfect from the less perfect. Premise number 4 is Descartes' fourth innate idea. If one denies that one has an idea of perfection, then I can give it to them, though this is misleading. The idea is already there, for it is innate. My pointing it out to someone simply makes the idea discursive. Once perfection is pointed out to someone, then they cannot deny having the idea. Premise number 5 is not quite as easy. The substance doctrine tells us that if there is anything, then that thing has to be either a substance or an attribute of a substance. Attributes are constantly changing and are relative to a perceiver while substances remain numerically one. Given this, my idea of a substance has more objective reality than my idea of an attribute because a substance has more formal reality than an attribute. Likewise, my idea of an infinite substance has more objective reality than my idea of a finite substance, and these are the only possible things that can cause an idea to emerge in my mind. Therefore, my idea of infinite substance must be the most objectively real idea that I have. Premise 6 says that this idea could only have come from God. Since I cannot derive the more perfect from the less perfect, then the idea had to have come from God because everything else in the world is imperfect. So, the idea had to have come from God. If one says that she got the idea from her grandmother, then where did she get if from? We can repeat the question until we find that the ultimate source must be God. Therefore, God exists.
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