Trump General Discussion V

[bono_212]

Yes. Vote for the greater good. Vote strategically.

Wait until we aren't faced with the apocalypse.

I politely disagree with you on this topic. But as I already said, it's easy for me to say that right now because it wasn't difficult for me to chose in this particular election.

 

[DaveC]

i'm getting awfully sick of this notion that whoever you voted for determines your intelligence, or worth, or deplorability, or whatnot. i'm starting to find myself feeling more sympathetic than i'd like to for some of the people who have been told constantly for the last few months they're automatically a terrible x-ist because they voted a certain way.

 

[Vlad n U 2]

I am very much sympathetic to those who abstained from voting or voted for Stein etc. My thoughts haven't changed in regards to that.

 

[Irvine511]

I politely disagree with you on this topic. But as I already said, it's easy for me to say that right now because it wasn't difficult for me to chose in this particular election.

Thanks for remaining civil. I'm posting on the fly and don't have time to fire off more than a few sentences, illnjust say that this is a special election with special circumstances. Voting for Trump doesn't make you an idiot if, indeed, what you want is what Trump has promised. I know these people. I've just spent a week with them. I spent plenty of time in any given year with people who disagree with me politically. I think they're wrong, quite misinformed (as evidenced in actual conversations I've had and heard and usually don't engage in because I'm polite AF in real life), but not stupid in the IQ sense of the word.

The "idiots" I'm concerned with are those who are aghast at what Trump is doing and didn't vote for Clinton or didn't vote at all. Voting may not be a measure of intelligence, but it also isn't a matter of identity and specialness and being precious about it is, I think, idiotic. We have people in here who voted against Obama in '12 who are now Never Trump because they understood in November that what's happening now was possible, and they knew that there was one tool they had to prevent that: by voting.

 

[Irvine511]

i'm getting awfully sick of this notion that whoever you voted for determines your intelligence, or worth, or deplorability, or whatnot. i'm starting to find myself feeling more sympathetic than i'd like to for some of the people who have been told constantly for the last few months they're automatically a terrible x-ist because they voted a certain way.

It's not that they are necessarily racist or in favor of sexual assault, but that these things didn't bother them enough to change their votes.

 

[bono_212]

It's not that they are necessarily racist or in favor of sexual assault, but that these things didn't bother them enough to change their votes.

This I can and always will agree with.

 

[TheFox]

i'm getting awfully sick of this notion that whoever you voted for determines your intelligence, or worth, or deplorability, or whatnot. i'm starting to find myself feeling more sympathetic than i'd like to for some of the people who have been told constantly for the last few months they're automatically a terrible x-ist because they voted a certain way.

It's almost like being classed as a terrorist when you come from a certain country or hold certain religious beliefs. That must get a bit sickening after a while, eh?

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

It's not that they are necessarily racist or in favor of sexual assault, but that these things didn't bother them enough to change their votes.

This.

I can totally understand people deciding to vote third party, but I have to say I don't understand not voting at all. Men who don't vote, to me, that feels like they're taking for granted a right they've always had, and women or black people or so on not voting strikes me weird when you think of all their ancestors did to help get them those rights.

That, and I just find it hard to believe that there isn't a SINGLE politician out there that a voter could find at least some common ground with. Obviously I totally understand wanting to find a candidate whose ideals align best with yours (general "yours"), but the fact is that sometimes people aren't always going to get that. And I think instead of not voting at all, people should find the candidate who they think might be most amenable to supporting the policies they want, the person who they think might be most open to hearing from them and other voters. And then they should keep holding that politician's feet to the fire if they get elected.

 

[dabiggestu2fan]

Water boarding anyone?

https://www.yahoo.com/news/cia-head-was-blindsided-by-waterboarding-memo-222449399.html

 

[LuckyNumber7]

Uncivil idiot here, gotta own up to that.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

Also registered to vote in two different states? Tiffany Trump.

 

[dabiggestu2fan]

I hope this so called voter fraud investigation is done by a third party who is unbiased (although who are we kidding? Trump will probably write the report himself and state blatant lies) but if say there is an unbiased investigation I can assure you trump will sure prove this was a rigged election in his favour. Too bad the trumpets will still love him though.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

This whole third party candidate vote thing...

I don't think it's stupid for somebody to vote for a third party candidate under normal circumstances. I actually wish it would happen more often. Both parties are terribly fractured right now. We need more options as a nation.

If the election was Hillary vs Ted Cruz? Or Bernie Sanders vs John Kasich? I'd have given serious thought to voting for a third party candidate, if there was a valid one out there (Stein and Johnson are absurd and I can't take either of them seriously). Evan McMullin only got into the race to fight against Trump, but a candidate like that as an independent, or my ideal candidate Mike Bloomberg? Yea... They'd have gotten my vote in a Clinton/Sanders vs Cruz/Kasich type of election.

The election we got, however, was certainly not one that one would consider to be "normal circumstances."

I could not, on good conscience, vote for a third party candidate if I thought the reality of my vote would have helped Trump win. The results of that victory, as we're already beginning to see, were too catastrophic to vote for an independent on principle.

Defeating Trump should have been everyone's main objective. Ultimately the people who stayed home had a greater negative effect than those who protest voted for a Stein or Johnson.

But alad, here we are, living in the twilight world of Lord Cheetoface.

 

[BVS]

I hope this so called voter fraud investigation is done by a third party who is unbiased (although who are we kidding? Trump will probably write the report himself and state blatant lies) but if say there is an unbiased investigation I can assure you trump will sure prove this was a rigged election in his favour. Too bad the trumpets will still love him though.

It would read just like his released health records.

And his minions will lap it up, repeat it over and over, then accuse everyone else as shutting down discussion, towing party line, false news, and being an echo chamber.

This is America now. We can't say it's Orwellian, Trump is the hero in this story.

We should have been more tolerant.


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[TheFox]

"Do I think it (torture) works? Absolutely."

Wow.

 

[Irvine511]

"Do I think it (torture) works? Absolutely."

Wow.

He's objectively wrong.

 

[bono_212]

In "lighter" news: A million Juggalos will march on Washington, DC in protest of gang classification | Consequence of Sound

 

[digitize]

"Do I think it (torture) works? Absolutely."

Wow.

I find it fascinating that he's willing to use the term "torture" in the sense that it's something he is officially considering allowing the US to do. That's a flagrant violation of the Geneva Conventions, no? The Bush Administration always used stupid euphemisms like "enhanced interrogation" to pretend that what they were doing was okay under international law when it pretty clearly was not.

It's almost slightly refreshing that Trump is willing to call torture what it is instead of pretending it's something else, even if it disgusts me that he's willing to actually perform the act.


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[PhilsFan]

The main reason Donald Trump is president today is because Hillary Clinton ran the worst national campaign I have ever heard of, let alone seen myself. Blaming third party voters lets her off the hook and is not a blueprint for turning the tide.

I can see both sides of the argument that Ashley/Lucky and Irvine are having. I myself have been on both sides, as you have all witnessed in here. But no matter where you fall on the issue of what a voter should be doing, I think it's clear that the Democratic Party needs to stop operating under the assumption that it is owed votes and is just reminding you of it.

 

[Vlad n U 2]

The main reason Donald Trump is president today is because Hillary Clinton ran the worst national campaign I have ever heard of, let alone seen myself. Blaming third party voters lets her off the hook and is not a blueprint for turning the tide.

It arguably tries to rid the Democrats of criticism, I still see this so much from Hillary-aligned pundits. Blaming everyone else under the sun whilst holding up this personality cult-like adoration of Hillary is unlikely to produce a favourable outcome for the Democrats in 2020. I still think she was an utter shitheap of a candidate.

 

[Irvine511]

Yeah, but no.

She won by 3m votes. She basically performed to expectations, she was as good a candidate as the Dems had (which may indicate structural errors, but she was not uniquely bad), she decisively won 3 debates.

Obviously, mistakes were made, but no one -- no polls, anywhere -- foresaw the Trump wave amongst exurban white voters, how these voters were voting as if they were a minority. And keep in mind, Trump trounced an entire GOP field. You can say that some are letting Hillary off the hook, but blaming Hillary ignores what might be a very ugly truth about your friends and neighbors. And what is a very ugly truth about 21st century America.

I think the only candidate who would have beaten Trump in the EC would have been Obama.

 

[Vincent Vega]

I find it fascinating that he's willing to use the term "torture" in the sense that it's something he is officially considering allowing the US to do. That's a flagrant violation of the Geneva Conventions, no? The Bush Administration always used stupid euphemisms like "enhanced interrogation" to pretend that what they were doing was okay under international law when it pretty clearly was not.

It's almost slightly refreshing that Trump is willing to call torture what it is instead of pretending it's something else, even if it disgusts me that he's willing to actually perform the act.


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It's forbidden by the Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment to which the US acceded in 1994. Tellingly, the US are not party to the Optional Protocol to the Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment (OPCAT) of 2006. Nonetheless, there as an absolute abolition of torture worldwide.
So right now they are openly discussing breaking UN conventions in ways not even the Bush administration did.

Convention against Torture

Currently, the US are the largest contributor to the UN Voluntary Fund for Victims of Torture. Will be interesting to see if they keep their commitments in the future: http://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Issues/Torture/UNVFVT/ListOfDonors.pdf

 

[Vincent Vega]

I truly hope the gains in smaller government will justify surrendering basic human rights and dearly held and communicated Christian principles.

 

[Vincent Vega]

Can't make this shit up.

White House Press Secretary Sean Spicer took the first question at his briefing Tuesday from a reporter who works for LifeZette, a website founded by Donald Trump supporter Laura Ingraham that published some untrue stories during the 2016 presidential campaign.

Last year, LifeZette released a video, "Clinton Body Count," that promoted a conspiracy theory that Hillary and Bill Clinton had ties to the deaths of several colleagues and Democrats. Another video posted two weeks before the election promoted false claims that voting machines in 16 states could be compromised because they were linked to a company tied to liberal activist George Soros.

Pro-Trump site that published fake news gets 1st question at White House briefing - Chicago Tribune

 

[mama cass]

A vote is a tool. The right to vote is precious, the vote itself is not.

agree 100% with Irvine!

the French are normally pretty good at strategic voting - back in 2002, the left was completely fragmented and the vote was dissipated in the first round (people voting for their preferred candidates), which led to Le Pen (extreme-right) actually getting thru to the final round, along with Chirac (centre-right) - at that point, it was an emergency, and the French had to vote strategically to keep Le Pen OUT - even the left, who hated Chirac, voted for him, TO KEEP OUT the worst possible scenario, and he got 85% of the vote!

THAT's how to vote strategically, and yes i agree with Irvine, that that small percentage of voters contributed to the problem we have today, because they refused to look past their noses and see this as an emergency situation that required tactical voting!

we have elections in a few months, just hoping the French will manage to keep Le Pen (daughter) out again this time round

 

[Vlad n U 2]

we have elections in a few months, just hoping the French will manage to keep Le Pen (daughter) out again this time round

I'm hoping that Melenchon deploys enough holograms to ensure an unlikely victory.

 

[mama cass]

I'm hoping that Melenchon deploys enough holograms to ensure an unlikely victory.

now there's a surprise

i'm not eligible to vote, but think Hamon's programme is quite interesting... people are sick of Valls, and i worry that Melenchon just alienates small businesses and the struggling middle classes - we're crippled by tax as it is... Macron is also making noises re. helping small businesses, making it easier for people to work and be self-employed, increasing worker protection, which is interesting too...

Fillon is currently under investigation for fraud - i am just hoping that he will not be able to run, and will have to be replaced by Juppe... a lot of people i know who normally vote "centre" are disturbed by Fillon, but would happily vote for Juppe... going to be a stressful few months...

 

[Vlad n U 2]

I'm not too surprised that Hamon got the nomination for the Socialist Party, Valls seems to be right-wing as it is and would be meaningless to have him there since Fillon exists.

Though at this point, just like 2002, I'd be mildly relieved if anyone other than Le Pen won - since it's been feeling like such a foregone conclusion for half a year now.

 

[BVS]

Blaming everyone else under the sun whilst holding up this personality cult-like adoration of Hillary is unlikely to produce a favourable outcome for the Democrats in 2020.

When did Hillary ever have a cult-like adoration?


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[mama cass]

I'm not too surprised that Hamon got the nomination for the Socialist Party, Valls seems to be right-wing as it is and would be meaningless to have him there since Fillon exists.

Though at this point, just like 2002, I'd be mildly relieved if anyone other than Le Pen won - since it's been feeling like such a foregone conclusion for half a year now.

he hasn't got it yet - him and Valls are thru to the next round of voting which is on the 29th! hopefully he will though...

it's a nightmare, what with Valls coming over as a "Blairite" and Fillon as a "Thatcherite" it would feel like re-living some of the worst in British politics - i've been thru that once, don't want to again LOL